How many people are using there e-bike off-road?

[EddiePJ]

Thanks Rob.

Currently I'm sitting here thinking about getting rid of the bike. Today has seen my second bearing failure in a little over a 1,000miles, and to say that I currently feel fecked off is an understatement.

After having spoken to a well respected engineer about the first bearing failure, the conclusion was that chain suck had probably contributed to it. Something had to give when the chain repeatedly locked solid, and as the chain never snapped, the load had to be transferred somewhere else, and the next weakest link, was the bearing.
Also, given the rapid rate that I am eating sprockets, I suspect that the Bosch system does not like being used in an unassisted mode for any length of time, or even possibly in eco mode off road. My feeling is that the extra required pedal force is placing strain on the bearing shaft. That is just my opinion/guess though.
Bosch only rebuilt the first motor, and did not supply new one, so perhaps it could be that they just didn't do a good job of it, I don't know. The rebuilt motor was certainly quieter than the original motor, and just recently I have started to feel that I actually liked and enjoyed the system. Not now though. I don't enjoy doubt about reliability.

This was the first bearing failure.

And the with the second current bearing failure, the bike just sounds like a bag of rusty nails, but hasn't yet shat itself.

Currently I just don't see a future for me and the Bosch system.


Ref the thron, in truth something about it doesn't float my boat or excite me, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. I'm just starting the process of looking at alternatives, and won't be looking for anything that has a small front sprocket. I might well investigate bikes fitted with the Yamaha motor.

 

[RobF]

Oh dear, that is a tale of woe.

The more I hear about the latest Bosch motor, the less I like it.

The small chain ring/rotation multiplication seems a nonsense to me.

I've ridden a couple of performance versions and can't tell the difference between them and my clonky old Bosch classics.

I am aware my bikes use the ISIS bottom bracket which is not brilliant because the bearing has a smaller diameter than other brackets.

This inevitably means a shorter working life.

I've had no failures, but don't do the miles or hard miles you do.

Trundling along cycle paths, never in the wet unless I can't avoid it, is light use in comparison.

An inverted motor like the Thron ought to be better for muddy conditions, although I can see why you are thinking of a rear hub motor.

You don't weigh a lot, and probably spend more time out of the saddle than on it.

A properly built wheel with occasional spoke tension maintenance ought to be reliable.

As you know, that would give you the gearing you want from a mountain triple, and a £15 bottom bracket which will probably last for ages and is easy to replace if it doesn't.

Less chain and cog wear all round from a rear hub as well.

 

[soundwave]

will bosch fix that or is it out of warranty ?

you must hammer the nuts out of it.

 

[Wander]

I might well investigate other makes of bikes fitted with the Yamaha motor further though.

Hi Eddie

Have you found any other maker's bikes with the Yamaha motor?

 

[Croxden]

Have you looked at the Rotwild?

 

[EddiePJ]

Rob, I'm sure that the newer generation of motor is fine for 99% of users, and I quite like the feel of it in the Ladies Macina that I have here, and I certainly wouldn't want to put anyone off from buying the system, but I never thought that I'd say this, I am another who prefers the Classic line. The simple reason being, that Bosch have decided to over complicate things with the new generation motors.
As said above, over the last month, I have really quite enjoyed the Bosch crank drive, but look at how long that has taken me to grow to like it. I'm now back to square one again about my opinion of them.
I have had a hub drive KTM on order for sometime now, but I don't actually see that as an all year round bike. After the BH, I'm very conscious about the fact that they don't have the winter capabilities that a good crank drive would have. By winter, I mean the seven months of the year where everything is drenched in water.
After the first bearing failed, I have been super aware of keeping as much mud and water away from the bracket area, and removing my motors today, it was spotlessly clean in there. I also never wash the area after a ride either.
I'm just convinced that the right side pedal pressure in no assist and eco, is just too great for the system to cope with. It certainly wears the first three teeth of the cassette out and front sprocket out in no time at all. Perhaps also, the bearing quality just isn't what it should be, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this were to be the case. I do know that I'm not the only person to experiencing issues with the system, and indeed there is a member of this very forum who also hasn't had the best of experiences with the Bosch motor in a different brand of bike.

Wander, I haven't started to look yet.

Soundwave, yes the bike is under warranty, and KTM and Bosch cannot be faulted in their speed and efficiency to resolve issues that have cropped up. It is just me sounding off and being fed up.

Yes the bike does get used very hard and often harsh conditions, but it easily copes with my use, the one weak link is sadly the motor. Even with my use, it isn't asking too much to get more than an average of 600-700 miles from each motor.

 

[soundwave]

well given the weight of my bike and with no assist on as well must put loads more stress on it thus why it failed 2 times now.

ill think twice now b4 riding hard on it with no power ass on.

do they make titanium sprockets n bearings?

 

[Sherman]

I might well investigate other makes of bikes fitted with the Yamaha motor further though.

Check out Giant Full E 1. I was very tempted by it, 500Wh battery and I guess the Yamaha motor is modified by Giant for even longer range (a bit less assist than the regular Yamaha motors?)

 

[RobF]

.
I have had a hub drive KTM on order for sometime now, but I don't actually see that as an all year round bike. After the BH, I'm very conscious about the fact that they don't have the winter capabilities that a good crank drive would have. By winter, I mean the seven months of the year where everything is drenched in water.

I've said for a while we are not so much suffering from global warming as global wetting.

Out of interest, what makes you think a hub drive couldn't be a year round bike?

I know your BH was a dead loss, but it seemed to me it would have broken down in any weather.

One would like to think a KTM/Panasonic hub would be up to the job.

 

[EddiePJ]

You are possibly right about the BH, but I am perhaps now overly paranoid that water potentially has more chance of getting in, than it might with a crank drive. I certainly loved the Panasonic hub on the Cross bike from last year, so maybe I'm just trying to think or be overly cautious about it.

As an aside and speaking positively for crank drives
If I wasn't to own one, I'm sure that I would miss the work out that a crank drive motor affords.
As said, it has taken a very long time for me like them, but I do now and that is perhaps why I am so disappointed in Bosch. For the last month, each ride has had me thinking that this isn't so bad after all. It just took a long time to convince me

Now rambling..

Directly aimed at Bosch, I do wonder just how much R&D that they carry out, and who actually does it. Using a professional rider to test equipment, isn't necessarily going to highlight issues that an end user will face. From looking at Bosch promo videos, the riders are just blatting around as fast as possible. The real user (me) might be doing the opposite, using eco or no assist at all, and placing strain on things. It certainly places strain on the drivetrain components, so might it not follow that it could also put strain upon the motor. I bet that they don't send out a regular rider to test the thing for hundreds of miles using no assist and eco.
Then you have chain suck. How was that so overlooked! It isn't unique to just KTM, and carries across other bike manufacturing brands as well. Given how much promotion and empheses that Bosch place upon their motors for e-mtb use, they should have had this angle eliminated before production started. This to me, this once again shows poor R&D.
Internal gearing.. I find that they have got this badly wrong, and looking at the German pedelec forum, I'm far from being the only one to think that, with riders opting for the extra rear sprocket to lower it. Once again, a fit factory rider would probably never experience that issue.
The battery housing is next up. Why design and build a pond to put a battery into.

Then there is Nyon. To be fair, other than the common problem of a broken outer bezel, I haven't had any issues with it, but it doesn't take much of a search to see that people do, and are having issues with it.

Moan over.

 

[103Alex1]

Never did have much faith in Bosch ... but then I've always been biased against them ! Looking forward to getting out riding again this Summer

 

[Croxden]

I might be tempting providence but to date I have never had chain suck on my Delite over 6000 miles or yet on the Haibike. Is this because they don't get the lube that others use?


I have suffered it on the old Gary Fisher, but I oiled that chain. I get the impression the oil forms a vacuum effect to suck the chain around the ring.

 

[soundwave]

never had that on my bike tho done 400 miles on it so far.

prob needs a new chain on it by now tho 1 i got is cheap anyway.

what chain oil you lot use i just put wd40 on it lol

 

[martin@onbike]

I was suffering terribly from the chain sucking round and jamming up the drive throughout the winter on my Bosch performance bike....
This has only ever occurred when completely caked in muck though.

The only way out of it for me (as it usually occurred whilst going through a particularly muddy patch) was to drop the power off completely, as the loss of traction was trying to throw the chain through the drive train as the power kicked in.
Then I needed to clean out the chainring with a stick/wash it off in a handy stream before continuing....

Since then, I've fitted a chain guide on the lower section of chain as near to the chainring as able, and it's not done it since...though now I've stated this publicly, i'm sure it'll happen fairly soon.

 

[EddiePJ]

Martin, I made small chain catcher to prevent it on the KTM, but before this, the best way of helping to stop it, was to make sure that the clutch on the derailleur was always engaged. I also find that if the clutch isn't engaged, the chain will jump off the front sprocket on bumpy downhill stuff.
In respect of the chain suck, I found that it wasn't so much heavy mud that made it happen, it was more likely to happen when things were wet, and the chain had a very thin coating on it. I wasn't impressed the day that it happened whilst trying to cross a busy junction. SRS will testify to that one, as he was with me.

Soundwave

Over time, I've used many types of chain lube, but for wet conditions, I have had good success with Muc-Off wet lube, but it does have one major downside. If the conditions begin to get even the slightest bit dry, the lube will collect dust like a magnet, and make everything black and horrid. It's then a pig to get things cleaned up and looking pristine again.

Lumos, has recommended Muc-Off ceramic dry lube, but I could only get hold of the ptfe version locally the other day, and found that it didn't really work that well. I had to stop mid ride to lube the chain again. I seem to recall doing the same some time back, when I was given a free sample to try. From reviews that I read, the ceramic version is far better.

I also ride with a guy that just uses WD40, and he seems to get on fine with that. I've not tried that one myself though.

 

[soundwave]

did see that muck off stuff but was put of by its a dust magnet when dry, ill stick to mywd40 then

cant find a titanium sprocket tho not 1 that will fit anyway on the bosch ;(

 

[Tim]

Tim, I have a few questions in relation to the Thron.

First up... What size is the OE front sprocket, and is there an alternative range of size options available?

Second up.... Could you measure the ground clearance under the motor for me?

Third up... I can't see any mention of the bikes weight in the spec list. How much does it weigh with battery fitted?

Fourth up.... I can't see any details about warranty listed. Please could you detail this?

Finally, could you also post up a photo of the display console, and detail it's settings?

Hello Eddie, sorry for the slight delay in replying to your questions.

1. Front sprocket is a 38-tooth and the 10-speed cassette is 11-34 teeth.

2. The motor is tucked inside the frame triangle, but clearance from bottom of the frame to ground is about 220 mm

3. Total weight is about 23kg of which just over 3kg is the 36V 17Ah battery pack.

4. It's a 2-year manufacturer's warranty.

5. It's the Derby Cycle compact Impulse 2.0 LCD on this one
"The LCD Compact displays all the key information in a neat, elegant, back-lit housing with a chrome finish. It displays all the key information at a glance:

• Battery charge state
• Assistance level
• Speed
• Trip distance
• Total kilometres/miles"

German magazine BikeSport reviewed this model earlier in the year
"The Focus is pretty fun to ride on downhill stretches and gives a very safe riding experience. The weight has no negative impact, and the bike does not push forward on steep descents", praises the testing editor.

There are several other Thron variants and also the hardtail Jarifas as well.

 

[EddiePJ]

Thanks Tim.

No delay at all, and I appreciate you responding.

 

[MarkTheGoose]

Eddie - Martin @ On-Bike indulged me in trying many different motor/drive setups before finally settling on a Haibike sDuro. After 250 mostly off-road miles I'm very happy with the choice. I'm not hammering mine anything like as much as you, but have had no problems with the drive setup. In the end, the attraction became (partly for the way it looks, which was why you & I exchanged on the BH originally), the fact that the drive is as close to a conventional tried & trusted MTB setup as you can get. Mine has dual front rings & 10spd cassette and you can just leave the battery at home & ride as a "heavy" MTB. I've had no problems with mud on front sprocket! One of the biggest concerns I've heard voiced with crank drive as opposed to hub is the load that the motor puts on chain & sprockets, but in your case, the load is coming from your legs (when your knees permit) and wearing out chains and gears is a relatively low cost problem. I have to say, I'm a big fan of the looks of the Rotwild, but this is based exclusively on looking at pictures, not any first hand experience. In the end, I decided that a full suspension sDuro was a better compromise for my £ than a hard tail Rotwild. Yamaha doesn't yet have the UK reputation to give everybody comfort and I can't comment on how waterproof the motor is with long term immersion in mud/puddles. I can say though, that the battery terminals aren't designed into a puddle and if water does get past the seal, gravity drains it out again. I like the fact that the Yamaha system has a small clear display, it only has 3 levels of assist (thought that would be bad, but now I like it compared to my wife's bike which is Bosch) and displays cadence (which is what it shows most of the time, when I'm riding). I have loads of options if I want to change gearing, using pretty conventional parts, although for me, they've got it pretty much spot on. If I did more road, I'd probably up the 42 front to a 44, but that's it. In terms of range for my riding style, I get around 30 miles off-road if it stays in High (only tried this once, just to see what happens) but usually with a mix of high/std/eco, 50 miles is easily achievable and I have no ambitions to do more than this between charges. You'd inevitably make it go further with your riding style.

On balance, I'm very pleased with my choice. See if you can get somebody to lend you one to try for a ride on the South Downs, or come up to the Cotswolds for a visit and you're welcome to try mine ...

 

[EddiePJ]

Many thanks MarkTheGoose.

That was very informative and helpful, thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts and experience down, it made for good reasoned reading.