How does the PAS work on the Tonaro?

[twain]

A little more on the subject of power ratings (and I’m not sure if you are aware of this); but the Aus Federal Government rather belatedly made a change in May this year to incorporate the 250 Watt European EN 15194 standard for eBikes in Aus. This is intended to apply in addition to the old 200W rule which will still remain in effect...

Hi Geebee,

Just quoting myself above, but here is some further info on the announcement regarding the adoption of the EN 15194 standard in Australia > New Rules Give Cyclists a Boost

Note this bit:
“Ms King praised state and territory authorities for working constructively with the Commonwealth on this change”.

“However, she said that changes to state and territory road rules may be necessary to allow use of the new electric bicycles and advised people to contact their state road authorities to confirm local provisions”.

I understand that the new rule was ratified by the Victorian State Government in September; however I’m not sure how quickly this has progressed in other Australian States.

Cheers

 

[Geebee]

I was aware of the ongoing legalisation of the EU ruling, but living in Tassie I suspect we will be last to adopt it
The way I look at it is I am quite happy to assume it will get here eventually so I would have no issue buying an EU legal bike now.

 

[flecc]

So the Australians now have the same problem that we have in Britain, mismatched technical law and usage law, prosecution of 250 watt bikes still being possible. I'm not surprised that Victoria has fully accepted the change since they've long wanted the whole of EU e-bike law to apply, but as remarked above, some states are bound to drag their feet on the necessary changes.

At least its not as bad as the USA where there are almost as many law variants as there are states.
.

 

[StuntmanBob]

I have a Tonaro here in Aus, and concur that the motor is probably just stamped '200w'. I've recently put a 20A controller and Cycle Analyst on mine, and it is regularly using over that figure. I have seen up to 680w so standard I would expect it to be pulling up to 400w. The better controller makes a world of difference, but I have dispensed with the PAS for now.

My thoughts and experiences with the Tonaro since I bought it (as an ebike newb), and the conversion to a better controller are posted on Whirlpool.

I've also done my own full wiring diagram (including the pin-outs from the Tonaro dash panel), as the only one I could find was a little misleading due to wire colours changing inside the frame where you can't see them! I'll be posting that once it's in electronic form.

The Tonaro is a good, fun bike. I'd love to change the rear spring to a proper shock, it looks like a Rockshock Deluxe might do the job lengthwise, but hard to find a good 2nd hand one for sale.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

In case you're unlucky enough to get one without a throttle, there's a throttle connector tucked inside the frame where the wires go in at the steering head. You can fit any standard throttle (cost about£5).

 

[Geebee]

That's funny, I was lucky enough to get one without a throttle

I would like to get to the plug for the controller (for the light switch) but I think there is a fair chance of loosing a wire or the plug inside the frame.

 

[hech]

I have a Tonaro here in Aus, and concur that the motor is probably just stamped '200w'. I've recently put a 20A controller and Cycle Analyst on mine, and it is regularly using over that figure. I have seen up to 680w so standard I would expect it to be pulling up to 400w. The better controller makes a world of difference, but I have dispensed with the PAS for now.

My thoughts and experiences with the Tonaro since I bought it (as an ebike newb), and the conversion to a better controller are posted on Whirlpool.

I've also done my own full wiring diagram (including the pin-outs from the Tonaro dash panel), as the only one I could find was a little misleading due to wire colours changing inside the frame where you can't see them! I'll be posting that once it's in electronic form.

The Tonaro is a good, fun bike. I'd love to change the rear spring to a proper shock, it looks like a Rockshock Deluxe might do the job lengthwise, but hard to find a good 2nd hand one for sale.

Thanks Bob, the review you posted on Whirlpool was interesting, you are obviously a very strong cyclist. Dunno if I would agree with your observations regarding the bike's speed, weight, range and size but mebe that is all down to differences in temperature and atmospherics between Uk and Ozz. I fitted big 2.3" tyres on my Bighit which I thought helped alot offroad but I guess the range is going to suffer as a result. Like you I am curious about replacing the rear shock though to be honest I find with the current setup just fine. Let us know how you get on.

 

[baldylox]

+1 Thanks StuntmanBob, Excellent and informative posts. I wonder if you have the original chain drive (is it 48T?) and whether you have considered changing this for a 50T? I have read on Endless Sphere that modding of the BigHit is relitively popular, chainwheel deraillieur?
I wonder if anyone has fitted a kingmeter type controller for more PAS options (worth it)?
I don't have an e-bike (yet, still pedalling) and am waithing for March when I hope to go test ride the Kudos Arriba and Ibex (have test ridden some hubs driven and Tonaro but favouring the BigHit even if a bit tank like).
Anyway I'm not one to leave things as standard so my e-bike choice will be down to the mod-a-bility... keeping an eye on d8veh's and others posts for inspiration.

 

[StuntmanBob]

Dunno if I would agree with your observations regarding the bike's speed, weight, range and size

In what way? My stats are my observations, so I can't see how they can be agreed or not agreed on - they are the facts as recorded!

Baldlox - yes, original chain drive with a 48t. As the bike has a bit more power available now (but not faster) I was contemplating changing either the cluster or chainring for a little more top speed (mid to high 30's would be ideal) without the legs having to go a million RPM to keep up.

Instead I put a deposit down on a NuVinci N360 yesterday so will build a new rim and chuck that on the bike. I like the idea of no derailleur, even though my gear changes are pretty smooth after 7 months of practice (moreso with the PAS inoperable).

Note for anyone wanting to disable the PAS and use the hand throttle only (if you have one) - the PAS plug is the three pin connector with a white plug going into the black socket (the only one in the controller box that looks like this). Simply unplug and you're done.

Each to their own of course, but I much prefer the bike with no PAS. I have no intention of hooking it back up to the CA now, after having ridden 'throttle only' for the past couple of weeks.

 

[StuntmanBob]

I fitted big 2.3" tyres on my Bighit which I thought helped alot offroad but I guess the range is going to suffer as a result.

The roll factor of 1.75" tyres makes quite a difference, particularly when pedalling with no assist. Not so good for off-road though, at 55psi they feel the bumps even with the rear spring!

Speaking of... I find the rear spring quite 'hard' on slow speeds, but quite effective on the occassions where the bike actually leaves the ground. There's a particular trail near by that has water run-off mounds across it, and the bike gets some good air off them. The landing is surprisingly soft, considering it is just a spring with no dampener. This is why I would like to find a dampener (or dual rate spring?), to soften the low speed bumps somewhat.

For what it is though, the Tonaro in all its different flavours is pretty good value for money, IMO.

 

[hech]

I would recommend the chainwheel mod especially now you have upped the amps and the controller can provide that extra power. A 52 t chainwheel should give you another 3 or 4 mph. I run both and have to stop and switch if reqd but generally just stay on the bigger 52t wheel. Some have even fitted a front derailleur by sinking threads into the gearbox. You may find the bms trips out more often having upped the current with the stock battery. Do let us know if you fit a new rear shock and tell us how well it suits.

 

[mike killay]

Just to add,
For the last year I have ridden my Tonaro Enduro on throttle only.
To stop the PAS working, I loosened the screw on the sensor by the magnet ring and swung the sensor up out of the way and re-tightened the screw.
My only complaint is that the throttle spring is far too strong.
My son on the other hand prefers the PAS and hardly uses the throttle on his Bighit.
Perhaps it is an age thing!

 

[StuntmanBob]

You may find the bms trips out more often having upped the current with the stock battery. Do let us know if you fit a new rear shock and tell us how well it suits.

Thanks for the chainwheel tip! No problem with the bms yet - the battery is a 1C so should cope with 10A cont / 20A max ok (in theory). The CA is brilliant for keeping a close eye on what the battery and motor is doing. I'm getting an 'average' peak of around 7 or 8A, with the max to date being 19.2A (riding up a quite steep hill, low gear, throttle only - just to see) and 680w is the most work I've seen the motor doing. Battery sag can be around 4v under extreme power.

Just to add...My son on the other hand prefers the PAS and hardly uses the throttle on his Bighit. Perhaps it is an age thing!

You can also open the loom box under the battery, and unplug the black into white connector. Does the same thing and is also easily reversible.

My mate has an Aseako, and he refuses to ride with the throttle as he is under the misconception that it uses more power (even though I have proven otherwise numerous times!). So last night he gave me permission to unplug his PAS for a while...

 

[alban]

What I like about the Tonaro is that you can play with gearing thro' the motor, as well as power, to get a bike that performs pretty much as you want - as with other crank-drives no doubt. I have a 34t steel chainwheel as I like to go slowly off-road and grind up steep hills without pedalling. As with hech I have a second chainring that's 24t for when the hill is a 1:4 or 5! One day I may add a front derailleur - German and French sites describe.
I had to add a throttle by fishing around to find the connector in the frame - I found a pair of curved artery forceps helped enormously!
I recently burned out my stock controller by starting on throttle alone and drew 25A+ (tinned shunt mod). The ebay replacement controller needed the PAS magnet pedal ring turned around to work - I thought that was weird but d8veh knew about it.

 

[hech]

hey Graeme you keeping well? Too bad about the controller but I guess you had been abusing it for long enough eh. With that ridiculously low gearing and the huge Headway you lug around you probably have the most powerful climbing production ebike in the country - and certainly the slowest!

 

[StuntmanBob]

I recently burned out my stock controller by starting on throttle alone and drew 25A+ (tinned shunt mod).

25A+ is not bad going for a cheap 15A controller!

The front drive slips a gear once in a blue moon under very heavy load (pedaling up hill in top gear) - I suspect the one way bearing may be the culprit, or is it more likely to be the worm gear mesh? I've not pulled the crank apart yet, sounds like it's about time... bike has done about 4100km.

 

[Geebee]

Anyone managed to fit a second front ring on a v3 converter? I would love a lower gear for off road use.

I think range has more to do with the rider than the control method, all of my bikes have exceeded manufacturers claimed range.
I like pedelec as it is like riding a bike and a throttle on long rides IMO gets annoying.

 

[twain]

...I like pedelec as it is like riding a bike and a throttle on long rides IMO gets annoying.

I prefer Pedelec also for about 90% of the time, and for the same reason too -particularly as the return spring on the throttle is fairly strong on Tonaro-built bikes.

For the other 10% of the time, when I use the throttle I find it absolutely invaluable; and now that I have become accustomed to using it, I would hate to put up with a bike that didn’t have a full range throttle fitted. So I guess that means that I have a problem with EN 15194!

(Just a theory here, but I wonder if those who prefer throttle-only; have you extensively ridden a motorbike? And could this explain the preference for using throttle only?)

 

[StuntmanBob]

(Just a theory here, but I wonder if those who prefer throttle-only; have you extensively ridden a motorbike? And could this explain the preference for using throttle only?)

Yes, I rode m/cycles for many years but the throttle is on the left so not sure if that is the reason or not in my case. It is partly the case for my Aseako friend, he rides a Harley so I think he finds it hard to adjust.

FWIW, where I live is on the flatlands of Western Australia - where hills are nothing compared to where I grew up (NZ). Perth does have hills, but they tend to be fairly subtle and long rather than short and steep. Perhaps this is why I prefer the throttle, as the bike requires no assistance once its rolling at a decent clip. I use the throttle to get up to speed quickly, and then ease it off and let the legs take over, with little spurts of the throttle as required to keep the pace going. The bonus of this is that it sounds more like a traditional bike a lot of the time (no noise) - even in low power mode, the motor whine was noticeable (to me).

Also, my one and only stack (so far) would not have happened if the PAS was disabled - it was the additional second or two of drive when I let go of the bars that sent me into a chainlink fence at 25kmh!

 

[hech]

Anyone managed to fit a second front ring on a v3 converter? I would love a lower gear for off road use.

I think range has more to do with the rider than the control method, all of my bikes have exceeded manufacturers claimed range.
I like pedelec as it is like riding a bike and a throttle on long rides IMO gets annoying.

WTF is a v3 converter when its at home then?