How does the PAS work on the Tonaro?

[Geebee]

How does the PAS work on the Tonaro? as in does it vary assist with speed.
My folder increases assist with pedal speed so it makes it possible to ride at lower speeds with the assist turned on, is this how the Tonaro work as well?

 

[Blew it]

Sorry for the delay in replying, I only just noticed your request.

The PAS is a simple rotation sensor on the pedal shaft... the assistance is not proportional to the pedal-shaft speed. As soon as the chainwheel starts turning, in comes the power. The Tonaro motor has a very soft start so it does not come in with a rush as some do.

The road speed to which the motor assists can be set with the three position switch. Position 1: The assistance gently rolls off at around 12-13 mph. Position 2: assistance to around 15-16 mph and around 18 mph in position 3.

I suspect this was the way the designer intended the machine to be used, but we never find that out as long as the wheel magnet is in position. On my own machine, I incorporated a switch into the wheel speed sensor circuit...I can switch it in or out of line whilst riding.

Wheel sensor switch

The very soft start sometimes causes confusion, often misinterpreted as a delay after using the brakes or throttle...it takes two or three seconds for the power to build up fully. Personally, even though I own high-end center-drives, I find the Tonaro BigHit a delightful machine to ride.

The BigHit is currently festooned with cameras, and being used to record various cycle routes around Swindon.

Tonaro-cam one.

Tonaro-cam three.

Tonaro-cam four.

This will feature in a future posting...after I have edited the gigabytes of footage into a YouTube video....It'll be a while lol.

Happy E-biking to all

 

[baldylox]

Nice multiCam set up... incidentally, what mud gaurds do you have on your Bighit? Did you need to do any "fettling" to fit them?

 

[Blew it]

Thanks, I'll post more about the cam-bike when the editing is finished. Gathering the footage is easy, just start the cameras recording and go for a ride.....editing it all into a fifteen minutes video is something else again.

Details of the mudguards, and other matters of interest can be found towards the end of the thread below. It's a long one.....best make a brew first.

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/9424-cricklade-country-way.html

Regards
Bob

 

[baldylox]

Thanks Bob, excellent stuff and a great write up (and opportunity for a cuppa
Although I don't have a Bighit yet, the more I read about them the more I'm convincing myself that it's the one I want (or possibly an Oxydrive conversion on my Sarecen - thanks d8veh).

 

[Geebee]

Thanks for the thorough reply Blew it.
One last question if I may, does the switch position affect power as well or just speed?

 

[Blew it]

The three position switch only regulates the system voltage, the maximum amps draw remains constant at around 15A.

At a very rough guess, I would think that 100% voltage (circa 40 volts) is available on switch position 3. Switch position 2 would be around 80% and position 1 about 60%. (courtesy of NRG) As the voltage max speed is reached in each three positions, the motor just gradually runs out of steam. (with the wheel magnet removed). This gives a very smooth assistance, unlike when the wheel magnet is in place. With the magnet in place, and when the road speed reaches around 15 mph, the inhibitor circuit is activated and assistance stops abruptly. This is the same circuit activated by the brake switches.

I've always felt that if switch position 3 reduced the system voltage to 90%, the wheel magnet could be dispensed with and allow the machine to be ridden in the way the designer intended. I suspect that 90% of system voltage would give a gentle roll off of assistance at around 17 mph.

 

[Geebee]

Thanks for the info Blew it.

 

[Geebee]

Back again with another question, at what approximate rpm (at the crank) does the assist taper off?
Cheers

 

[Blew it]

A difficult question to answer. It may be easier to compare with other center-drive systems.

The Panasonic system in it's latest form allows assistance up to a cadence of 72 rpm.

The Bosch system allows assistance up to a cadence of 110 rpm in 'Speed mode'. In 'sport mode' the assistance rolls off at around 65 rpm and pro rata for the two lower 'Modes'.

On both systems this is electronically controlled. I'm guessing there is no such sophistication in the Tonaro drive...it just carries on assisting until the motor reaches voltage maximum. My regular sustainable cadence is a typical utility style 50-60 rpm, with short sprints of around 75 rpm. In use, with the wheel magnet out-of-line and the mode switch at position 3, The motor runs out of steam at 18-19 mph in top gear. As I can maintain this speed continously, I'm thinking the cadence at that speed is around 65 rpm.

As you can see, not a definitive answer to the question.

 

[Geebee]

Thanks, and again very informative.
I tried to buy one of the low priced Bosch powered bikes discussed recently but they refused to sell to OZ
The only crank drive bike I have found in Oz beside Tonaro drive based ones is a Monark Eco with Panasonic system and 3 speeds for $2,600.
So I will probably grab a Tonaro Esprit/ Chianti bike shortly, I can't test drive any of them thus all the questions

 

[twain]

Back again with another question, at what approximate rpm (at the crank) does the assist taper off?
Cheers

Hi Geebee,

I don’t believe that the Tonaro-built bikes use the pedal sensor to do anything other than sense if the pedals are actually moving or not. And the tapering-off of electrical assistance is initiated by monitoring of road speed via the magnetic sensor fitted to the rear wheel –that is, if this sensor is actually fitted and is not disabled.

(Here in Australia, where the Tonaro-built bikes are still only rated at 200W atm, the bikes used to always be sold with this sensor fitted; but more recently have started to be sold without any sensor on the rear wheel at all). –Presumably this is because; with the controller detuned to 200W, it could demonstrated that the bikes simply ran out of steam before any speeds regarded as dangerous could be attained on level ground.

~~~~~

BTW: I am a new Tonaro owner myself (although the bikes are sold under a different name by the importers here in Aus). The model I chose is the ‘Unisex’ step-through model which is referred to as the Aseako Alto here, but known elsewhere as the Tonaro Compy.

I had been researching a new eBike purchase for about 12months, but kept coming back to the idea that I wanted a mid-drive system, and so finally bit the bullet and purchased the Alto err, Compy.

And I’m very happy with it so far. But heh heh, it might get some alterations made to it in the future in the areas of battery & controller when the original warranty has expired!

Cheers

 

[flecc]

BTW: I am a new Tonaro owner myself (although the bikes are sold under a different name by the importers here in Aus). The model I chose is the ‘Unisex’ step-through model which is referred to as the Aseako Alto here, but known elsewhere as the Tonaro Compy.

They seem to be sold under differing names in other countries too, Nycewheels in New York recently selling them under yet another name which I can't remember now*.

The Chinese maker calls them Tonaro though, as this "about us" website page shows.

* P.S. The name in the USA is Evelo, sold by the Evelo company in Boston, Massachusetts.
.

 

[Geebee]

Hi Twain, I looked at the Alto but I need to reduce the weight on my chest and arms due to some health issues, the Alto looks like it would be similar position wise to a MTB in use so that's why I am looking at the Chianti, it's dearer though of course
Is it actually 200w or did they just get it approved as such, how do your speed figures compare with those of the UK riders on the forum?

 

[hech]

Javy Ou
12:52 PM (1 hour ago)

to me
Hi claymore,

I don't agree you to change my ebike with 48V or 60V system,because the ebike is with throttle, while my bearing/chainwheel can not support so much forece under throttle!

So if you change the ebike to 48V system , the bearing/chainwheel is not under guarranty.
　　　　　　　　致
礼！

An email from Tonaro this morning advising against the re-volting practices of some westerners!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

And I’m very happy with it so far. But heh heh, it might get some alterations made to it in the future in the areas of battery & controller when the original warranty has expired!

Cheers

Have a read of this - if you haven't already.
Endless-sphere.com • View topic - Tornaro Bighit Review and Upgrade
Endless-sphere.com • View topic - 48 Volt upgrade for RMartin (tonaro) ebike

 

[hech]

Good advice d8veh, the first link is required reading for Tonaro users. The Zocca Rossa bikes which come standard with the new vinci have got to be worth a punt. Notice how much cheaper these bikes are in Australia and even NZ.

 

[hech]

"The Bosch system allows assistance up to a cadence of 110 rpm in 'Speed mode'. In 'sport mode' the assistance rolls off at around 65 rpm and pro rata for the two lower 'Modes'. "
-Blew It

so if sport mode allows up to say 15mph at 65rpm that suggests speed mode at 110rpm would propel you along at 25mph. Is Bosch ignoring the european speed limit?

 

[Blew it]

...so if sport mode allows up to say 15mph at 65rpm that suggests speed mode at 110rpm would propel you along at 25mph....

No, it will not, the road speed sensor on the back wheel will taper the assistance off when approaching 17 mph. (unfortunately). The road speed sensor overides everything.

The four modes allow the rider to select their preferred cadence range, those who prefer spinning the pedals fast when climbing can do so in 'Speed Mode'...assistance up to 110 rpm, until they reach 17 mph that is.

If your fit enough, you can pedal the bike along as fast as you like, but the Bosch sytem will have withdrawn it's support above 17 mph.

UK speed limits apply only to motor vehicles, not bicycles.

 

[twain]

Hi Twain, I looked at the Alto but I need to reduce the weight on my chest and arms due to some health issues, the Alto looks like it would be similar position wise to a MTB in use so that's why I am looking at the Chianti, it's dearer though of course
Is it actually 200w or did they just get it approved as such, how do your speed figures compare with those of the UK riders on the forum?

Hi again Geebee,

Hehe, whether the Tonaro Company actually detuned the controller from 250 to 200W for sale in Aus –or simply changed the engraved power rating on the motor cover to 200W, I don’t know for sure!

Also, I haven’t got a means of measuring my speeds yet. Will probably eventually get either a Cycle Analyst, or Speedict device (which provides readout on a mobile phone via Bluetooth) -to provide measurement of speed and power consumption etc.

~~~~~

A little more on the subject of power ratings (and I’m not sure if you are aware of this); but the Aus Federal Government rather belatedly made a change in May this year to incorporate the 250 Watt European EN 15194 standard for eBikes in Aus. This is intended to apply in addition to the old 200W rule which will still remain in effect.

And with dual rules now applying, this will mean that a large range of European bikes can now be imported into Aus without requiring any modifications. And that’s good news for importers; and for Aussie ebikers too -since there will be a much larger range of choice available to buyers.

Just remains to be seen when the expanded range of bikes start turning up on our shores!

~~~~~

BTW: I think you are correct that the Alto/Compy has a similar riding position to many mountain bikes. In fact, the frame seems to be quite large since the distance from front stem to the seating stem is actually slightly greater than what it is on my two other mountain bikes –which means that instead of sitting in an upright position, one does have to lean over to reach the handle bars quite a bit. And this may not be good for someone with health issues that require a more upright position.

On the other hand, this could possibly be ameliorated by using more swept-back handlebars as georgefromvt (a poster on the Endless-Sphere forum) has done on his RMartin (Tonaro Bighit) style ebike:

Endless-sphere.com • View topic - 48 Volt upgrade for RMartin (tonaro) ebike

Cheers