Help! How do they enforce legal max power?

[sjpt]

As long as I can keep the same bottom gear and same gap between gears I've nothing against having a higher top gear I never use. I rarely use my existing top gear on the ebike (Motus hub gear), and never get near it on the non-e bike (derailleur).

 

[soundwave]

i have a 20t front sprocket and 10-50 on the rear.

 

[nigelbb]

A legal battery is 48v tops. There has been some discussion here whether that means 48v nominative or 48v maximum. All 48v nominative batteries charge to 54.6v or therabouts.

Battery voltage is easy to enforce, the testing person just needs a volt meter.

Speed is easy to enforce the police just need a speed camera.

It can't be correct that battery can be no more than 48V. It's the power of the motor that's limited to 250W not the voltage required to deliver that power. Power = current x voltage.

 

[vfr400]

It can't be correct that battery can be no more than 48V. It's the power of the motor that's limited to 250W not the voltage required to deliver that power. Power = current x voltage.

That's an interesting point. AFAIK, there is no requirement for a bike to meet the EN15194 standard under UK law. UK law is fairly brief and says that the motor must be rated at no more than 250w, the power must stop when you stop pedalling and the maximum speed allowed is 25km/h. It's EN15194 that mentions "up to 48v".

 

[Andy-Mat]

It sounds like your gearing is too low. There are plenty of options to make it more comfortable. Tell us or show us what you have if you want suggestions.

Thanks for the friendly gesture, but I am quite happy with the 25KMH speed limit. Riding on unmade roads is "fun" enough at that speed!
I once touched 40KMH, going down a hill, just trying to find out how fast my dog was (faster than 40!!), and found that to be pretty terrifying.
I have not even counted the number of "points" on any of my gears....
But many thanks for your interest.
regards
Andy
PS. The 0 number should have been 40 on my last post, apologies!

 

[Andy-Mat]

It can't be correct that battery can be no more than 48V. It's the power of the motor that's limited to 250W not the voltage required to deliver that power. Power = current x voltage.

Fully correct!
I myself have only seen 24, 36 and 48 volt bike batteries, but as they are easy to make, someone could easily buy the cells and make up say a 60 volt battery, or possibly order one from a battery maker.....
I find 36 volt to be a good "middle of the road" (pun intended!) battery myself, and I have two, to allow long distances, mainly in the summer.
Also, I prefer Panasonic cells, and have had no problems with any of my batteries on both 36 volt e-bikes, they all used them....
regards
Andy

 

[anotherkiwi]

It can't be correct that battery can be no more than 48V. It's the power of the motor that's limited to 250W not the voltage required to deliver that power. Power = current x voltage.

The battery is limited in order to stay within EU low voltage limits, nothing to do with e-bike power. Once you get to about 60-72v DC there is a whole lot more legislation to respect in order to prevent electrocution, fires, parasiting your neighbours TV reception ....

60v is a 14S battery. That can be a 48v nominative battery - 24v 7S + 24v 7S in series = 48v 14S...

 

[georgehenry]

As anotherkiwi has said it would be possible for the police to check speed.

However that in itself does not reveal whether the speed recorded is being achieved legally or otherwise.

I live on top of a hill with the town centre in the valley below and travel close to 30mph down these hills into town with no assistance from the motor, just the weight of the bike, me pedaling and gravity.

 

[flecc]

AFAIK, there is no requirement for a bike to meet the EN15194 standard under UK law.

There is. Two EU countries adopted EN15194 at its introduction, France and the UK.

Now with the Great Repeal Bill writing all preceding EU law into UK law, that is permanently the case unless and until parliament acts to change it.
.

 

[vfr400]

There is. Two EU countries adopted EN15194 at its introduction, France and the UK.

Now with the Great Repeal Bill writing all preceding EU law into UK law, that is permanently the case unless and until parliament acts to change it.
.

What does adopting EN15194 mean then? Is it illegal to ride a bike that doesn't have reflectors on the pedals? Is it illegal to ride a bike witnout a side stand? Both are requirements for compliance with EN15194.

 

[Andy-Mat]

As anotherkiwi has said it would be possible for the police to check speed.

However that in itself does not reveal whether the speed recorded is being achieved legally or otherwise.

I live on top of a hill with the town centre in the valley below and travel close to 30mph down these hills into town with no assistance from the motor, just the weight of the bike, me pedaling and gravity.

Good point!
But I think it unlikely that the Police would try to measure the bike's speed at that point for that reason, unless another speed limit is also in force as well, for example a 30 or 40 MPH max speed for that road! They might even be checking the speeds of all vehicles.
regards
Andy

 

[flecc]

What does adopting EN15194 mean then? Is it illegal to ride a bike that doesn't have reflectors on the pedals? Is it illegal to ride a bike witnout a side stand? Both are requirements for compliance with EN15194.

Probably, but like so much of pedelec law and indeed other EU law, no-one takes any notice.

As these measures arrived their titles were read out in the House of Commons, usually a batch at a time. As each title was read, the handful of bored MPs present said "Aye" and it became law here.

And as ever of course, the UK accepted everything, unlike many EU countries who were more selective.
.

 

[flecc]

unless another speed limit is also in force as well, for example a 30 or 40 MPH max speed for that road!

But bicycles and legal pedelecs are not subject to our road speed limits, since they only apply to type approved motor vehicles.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

What does adopting EN15194 mean then? Is it illegal to ride a bike that doesn't have reflectors on the pedals? Is it illegal to ride a bike witnout a side stand? Both are requirements for compliance with EN15194.

I didn't read about those in EN15194 I think they are in another directive that concerns road worthiness. In French road code pedal reflectors were there long before pedelecs existed and to my knowledge in France there is no obligation for a side stand.

 

[sjpt]

another speed limit is also in force as well, for example a 30 or 40 MPH max speed for that road!

If it is legally a pedalec (or a regular bicycle) then the road speed limits do not apply; or so I understand from recent posts on other threads. If it is NOT a legal pedalec (eg because of max assisted speed) then exceeding the speed limit is another extra detail that could potentially be thrown at you.

Is it illegal to ride a bike that doesn't have reflectors on the pedals? Is it illegal to ride a bike without a side stand? Both are requirements for compliance with EN15194.

I believe it is illegal to ride any bike that doesn't have reflectors on the pedals (maybe there is an exception for bikes over a certain age). I hadn't heard about the side stand requirement.

 

[Danidl]

That's an interesting point. AFAIK, there is no requirement for a bike to meet the EN15194 standard under UK law. UK law is fairly brief and says that the motor must be rated at no more than 250w, the power must stop when you stop pedalling and the maximum speed allowed is 25km/h. It's EN15194 that mentions "up to 48v".

I suspect that the law is actually there regarding the Low Voltage Directive. Reading up on legal engineering standards is no task for the fainthearted. Any of these standards make reference to yet other standards again and again and each have specific links. The majority of British Standards were codified under BSI letters and these were transferred where applicable to Euro Standards .. often coded as EN standards. The low voltage directive would have started life as a British Post Office standard ,for telephone exchanges,and grown wings. My recollection is that for a voltage under 60 V the requirement is much relaxed than for voltages above this. Locked cabinets, double layer insulation etc are required. So British law might not have found it necessary to make accommodation for what was already a well regulated activity.

 

[Nealh]

Whilst speed limits may not apply and you can't be done for speeding , other cycling laws can be applied like furious riding.

 

[vfr400]

I suspect that the law is actually there regarding the Low Voltage Directive. Reading up on legal engineering standards is no task for the fainthearted. Any of these standards make reference to yet other standards again and again and each have specific links. The majority of British Standards were codified under BSI letters and these were transferred where applicable to Euro Standards .. often coded as EN standards. The low voltage directive would have started life as a British Post Office standard ,for telephone exchanges,and grown wings. My recollection is that for a voltage under 60 V the requirement is much relaxed than for voltages above this. Locked cabinets, double layer insulation etc are required. So British law might not have found it necessary to make accommodation for what was already a well regulated activity.

Yes I researched that a few years ago. You're referring to Extra Low Voltage (BS 7671:2008), which allows up to 120V DC. There's an overlap with the EU Low Voltage Directive, which is for DC voltages above 75V. None of these things are specific requirements for Ebikes, though if you electrocuted someone with your bike, you'd be in trouble if it didn't comply.

Much of this legality issue comes into play if something goes wrong. Let's say your battery spontaneously burst into flames and sets light to a motorbike parked next to it, so they had to call the fire brigade. I think in that case you'd have some difficult questions to answer when they find bad practice in your wiring, like you used the wrong diameter for the current.

I think when we want to answer the question about whether the bike is legal or not, we mean if a policeman stopped you and checked your bike, what questions would they want answered. If you were able to show a copy of its EN15194 certificate and they can see that the bike is unaltered, you'll be home and dry, as long as the brakes work. I can't see them asking for a copy of the bike's operating instructions showing where it says how to use the charger, which is a requirement of EN15194.

If EN15194 were a legal requirement, can you imagine the situation where you're knocked down by a car driver, who didn't look properly, then the police arrive and ask you whether you have the bike's operating instructions showing how to charge it, and the only instruction you can produce is a home-made one on how to switch on the bike, service the brakes and clean it, so he books you for no insurance, no MOT and no tax because your bike is illegal, as it doesn't meet the requirements of EN15194.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Yes I researched that a few years ago. You're referring to Extra Low Voltage (BS 7671:2008), which allows up to 120V DC. There's an overlap with the EU Low Voltage Directive, which is for DC voltages above 75V. None of these things are specific requirements for Ebikes, though if you electrocuted someone with your bike, you'd be in trouble if it didn't comply.

Much of this legality issue comes into play if something goes wrong. Let's say your battery spontaneously burst into flames and sets light to a motorbike parked next to it, so they had to call the fire brigade. I think in that case you'd have some difficult questions to answer when they find bad practice in your wiring, like you used the wrong diameter for the current.

I think when we want to answer the question about whether the bike is legal or not, we mean if a policeman stopped you and checked your bike, what questions would they want answered. If you were able to show a copy of its EN15194 certificate and they can see that the bike is unaltered, you'll be home and dry, as long as the brakes work. I can't see them asking for a copy of the bike's operating instructions showing where it says how to use the charger, which is a requirement of EN15194.

If EN15194 were a legal requirement, can you imagine the situation where you're knocked down by a car driver, who didn't look properly, then the police arrive and ask you whether you have the bike's operating instructions showing how to charge it, and the only instruction you can produce is a home-made one on how to switch on the bike, service the brakes and clean it, so he books you for no insurance, no MOT and no tax because your bike is illegal, as it doesn't meet the requirements of EN15194.

As explained a few months back EN15194 doesn't quite work like that, it is a directive. The motor needs to be labelled as 250W, the battery needs to be labelled as 48v max with a CE mark and the frame needs a conformity sticker where the manufacturer (you?) states:

EPAC According to EN15194
25 km/h
250W

The documentation is a requirement that the seller of the bike must respect, you don't need to carry it with you. And as you made the bike(s) for yourself there is no sales transaction requiring you to write one for yourself.

Both of my pedelecs are illegal - no sticker, home made battery with no marking. But they are restricted to 25 km/h assist and the motors are both marked correctly so if I mow down a phone zombie I am reasonably confident that if the judge isn't having a bad day the missing markings would not be a major offence.

PS there is nothing to stop you from getting a 72v controller and plugging in 2 x 36v batteries in series. As long as you have a 250 W motor...

 

[niggle]

Point of order :
Pedal reflectors are required on all UK bicycles when ridden between sunset and sunrise, unless the bicycle was manufactured before 1985. Does not matter that virtually all roadies are riding around without them on their fancy clip-in eggbeater pedals, the law is the law, but OTOH I don't know anybody who has ever had their collar felt for this.

Also you are very unlikely to be prosecuted for having illegal lights, which applies to the vast majority of all cyclists out there after sunset, as most cyclists, and most shops selling them lights, have no clue about the law and in any case legal lights are really hard to find in the UK.

The key points are that, although the RVLR allow flashing lights, they must a) emit at least 4 candela, b) flash regularly 1-4 times a second, c) if also capable of emitting a steady light they must be approved to BS6102/3 or an EU equivalent standard and be marked as such.

Good luck with finding any lights with BS6102/3 marked on them, they are virtually non-existent now, so that just leaves lights marked with an EU equivalent standard, with only the German StVZO approved lights being easy to find, identify by their "K mark" and be reasonably assured that the standard meets the test of being "equivalent". Busch & Muller, Axa, Spanninga etc. make lights to the German standard and now that all bikes in Germany can have battery lights (previously only allowed on bikes under a certain weight, i.e. mainly road racing bike, all other bikes had to be sold with a dynamo light system) you can get all sorts of Li rechargeables, USB rechargeable and AA/AAA battery powered ones with a K mark. One point though: non of them flash, as that is not legal in Germany.

EDIT: the only other requirement is a red rear reflector approved to BS or EC standard, the white front reflector and spoke reflectors are only a 'point of sale' requirement for new bikes, you can chuck them in the bin on your way out when you collect a new bike.

EDIT 2: BS6102/3 approved rear light from Cateye, and includes legal reflector, shame these are NOS and disappearing fast:

Cat Eye Cateye REAR Cycle Bike Light Lamp TL-AU100BS 6 LED Seatpost Mount 60 Hrs | eBay

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