Hopes for 20 mph assist limit dashed

[Ninelives]

mine hund hat keine nase

mine dog has no nose ??

 

[wotwozere]

Hi

Hund kase wee

Is Beligum in Germany still?

thx

Bob

 

[Alex728]

mine hund hat keine nase

Wie riecht er?

 

[Grumpy1]

Voulez vous couchez avec moi ce soir?

 

[johnl]

He Bauer, deine Huhn hat fieber.

From an old German cartoon book. Hey Farmer, your hen has a fever.

 

[flecc]

stick a link up when you can find one, although my German is only high school level I'm willing to plug away at it to get some info out of it...

Sorry to disappoint you all, no German language link.

I've used a long lost method of finding things out, speaking to other people.

In fact the original information came from Peter Walsh, the UK importer of Heinzmann motors. Online he's Emotive Pete in this forum.
.

 

[Pedro62]

By law in the UK, the motor assistance cuts off at 15 mph, and in the EU at 25 kph. Many would like that increased to 20 mph.

You may be using your eZee derestricted with motor assistance to 20 mph, but you could be prosecuted for doing that.
.

Prosecuted? What would happen

 

[flecc]

Prosecuted? What would happen

In law you would be riding a motorcycle which was not type approved, not registered, not taxed, not insured, no number plates and tax disc displayed etc. If you didn't have an appropriate motorcycle driving licence, that would be a further offence. If the offending e-bike was over three years old, you'd also be guilty of not having an MOT certificate.

A court would fine you for each of those offences and could issue a driving ban in addition, and that would apply to any present or future driving licence.

The chances of you being caught and prosecuted are extremely small of course, but it's as well to realise how serious the consequences could be.
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[kraeuterbutter]

Hi,
iam currently in a train, surfing with a cellphone,,,
my German is quite good,
will post tommorrow some infos
short for now:
austria: 400watt is legal,
up to 20km/h no pedalec sensor is needed,
up to 25km/h pedalic sensor is needed
for german s-pedelec class: tomorrow

 

[flecc]

Thanks kraeuterbutter, looking forward to that further information.
.

 

[kraeuterbutter]

Hello..

so, i tried to informe myself a little more:

the good news: Riese und Müller could not bring there 500W S-pedelec (s for sport = faster than 25km/h) to the market, because the KBA
(Kraftfahrtbundesamt = federal office which is responsable for that vehicles)
didn´t allow anymore s-pedelecs with more than 250Watt
so Riese und Müller was waiting
BUT: it was not a permanent stop !
May 2009 Riese und Müller can and will bring there 500W S-Pedelec to the market

second: the stop was only for pedelecs with more than 250Watt
it was still posible to licence fast pedelecs with a power-limit to 250Watt

so, now the bad news:
maybe not bad news because it was always that way,
but maybe some of you were not familiar with that facts:

if you dream of buying a bafang or NC-set with 500Watt, a cheap bike and than you have a fast pedelec for ~1000 Euro

forget it !
there are some few fast pedelecs (F-Flyer, S-Flyer, dolphine, ...)
all of them are in the ~3000Euro class

if you wana build such a bike cheaper by your self: you need lot of money

when you try to licence it, you need a approval, a technical concession.
to get that, you have to count with around 3000 Euro !!!

in the German forum some want to build a own S-Pedelec and not pay 3000-4000 Euro for a ready-to-use bike
they want it cheaper..
the idea: they will build 10 completely identical bikes for 10 people and than go to the concession-center..
there a technician will check the bikes and then say: "ok"
this costs ~3000 Euro (devided by 10, so only 300 for each person)

for such bikes (also for the S-Flyer, F-Flyer, ....)
the bikes has only the licences as long as you don´t change anything..
if you change the tires from Marathon to Big-Apple the technical approval is not valid anymore, you have no insurance, the bike is not allowed to be used anymore
if you change the HS33 to V-Brakes or diskbrakes -> same thing

so its like on cars, you are there also not allowed to change things that easily

you may get this 3000 Euro certificat cheaper if you find for example a bike-frame manufactor that says: "yes, our frames are safe for 45km/h permanent use, yes we allow electric motors with 500Watt, ..."
the same for the fork
than it would be a little cheaper
BUT: you will not find (that easily) a manufactor that will realy guarantee that
for that the licence-prozess is much more expensive

the same for the electric componentes..
if the controller is included in the HUB, its easier because the HF-emiting is encolsed and that test is easier or not needed

and so on, and so on....

conclusio:
* S-Pedelecs over 250W will be allowed again in the near future (or allready) (up to 1000W)
* S-Pedelecs up to 250Watt were never banned, got always a licence

* building a S-Pedelec by your own is much much more complicated (and expensive) as many of you may have thought because of the complicated licence-process for from the manufactor technical not approved componentes and bikes


ps.: i hope you can get some info out of this..
iam not sure if my translation is right (or iam sure that it is not right):
technical approval
licence
technical conession

i don´t know which word/phrase is correct for the process i mean
(its like with your car, were you have to go every 2 years or so to check if everything is ok and then you get a licence to use the car another 2 years
if you want to use other rims, ... you have to go there and get a new licence)

the problem is: for S-pedelecs this process seems to be much more expensive than for cars because everything is new land

companies which have done it (biketec, riese-müller, ....) --> you have to pay 3000-4000 Euro for a bike

 

[kraeuterbutter]

besides:
if you don´t now riese&Müller: gelb

the Delite is their 500W-S-Pedelec which will be availabe in may 2009 after some delay because of the KBA not licening it

the info for May 2009 is on the webpage and was confirmed by email

 

[flecc]

Many thanks for your help on clarifying this kraeuterbutter, all understandable, and as you say, not as bad as it seemed at first. We say "Type Approval" for the technical test.

In the UK we have a cheaper type approval process for individual vehicles, and for an individual type approval test on a two wheeler, the cost is £200, and for a retest if failed on any point, £45. Unfortunately we have no high speed S class so that cheap facility is not as useful as it could be.
.

 

[kraeuterbutter]

hmm..
the whole thing (with the Type Approval) seems not to be that easy,
and not that easy to be understandable for me

i had some conversation about that in German forum with other people with more knowlege..
well.. i am still confused, but on a little higher level

they doubt that it is that cheap also for you..

its also maybe something different:
when you build a 2-wheel-motorbike with roller-components, you use motor-bike componentes (rimms, brakes, ...) that were made for that purpose..

when you build a pedelec for 45km/h and wana use bicycle-components, you need a "harmlessness - certificate" (well, iam sure that THAT is the wrong word for it) form the manufactor

otherwise the tests will be much more complicated and than more expensive
so: the German guys doubt that it is that cheap doable for you Isle-folks

 

[flecc]

otherwise the tests will be much more complicated and than more expensive
so: the German guys doubt that it is that cheap doable for you Isle-folks

What I quoted was the maximum! For the low powered moped class it's much cheaper here. Have a look at our government webpage and scroll down to motorcycles etc:

Single Vehicle Approval Fees
.

 

[flecc]

Update on Type Approval Charges

Hi kraeuterbutter

Here's some right up to date information on our Single Vehicle Type Approval scheme:

Details of the scheme

Fees for the SVA tests (scroll down for the two wheeler charges)

You'll see that the current charges are £50 for 15 mph (25 kph) bikes and £78 for faster types, with retests at £16.

We also have much more expensive manufacturer tests like your €3000 one, so I feel sure Germany will have an equivalent low cost Single Vehicle test (SVA) for amateur constructors or personal importers, since our SVA scheme is for compliance with EU standards.
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[Tiberius]

You'll see that the current charges are £50 for 15 mph (25 kph) bikes and £78 for faster types, with retests at £16.

We also have much more expensive manufacturer tests like your €3000 one, so I feel sure Germany will have an equivalent low cost Single Vehicle test (SVA) for amateur constructors or personal importers, since our SVA scheme is for compliance with EU standards.
.

I think the difficulty, and expense, arises when you try to approve bicycle type frames and components for motor cycle speeds. AFAIUI, the UK SVA is for something built like a motor cycle and the tester can work down a pre-determined test list.

If you present a bicycle type structure and ask if its OK for 60 kph, then that's a serious engineering question, and you wouldn't expect an expert to give an opinion for £78.

The EU standards question is interesting. In my industry the law sets out the requirements, eg, does not cause harm. Complying with the letter of the standard is one way of showing you meet it. Its the easiest way, but not the only one. There is an alternative route which basically involves getting an expert to say that it does not comply with the details of the standard but the end performance is at least as good as the standard. That expert needs to pay his insurance company, so his services won't come cheap. It sounds like something similar may be going on here.

Nick

 

[frank9755]

recently some lycra type actually ran down and killed a girl and didnt' even get jail - had even told the girl to get out the way but she panicked and "didn't move in time.. " he had no right to even tell her to move but did so (and allegedly showed no remorse in Court whatsoever and still cycles)

As there are so few incidents where cyclists kill pedestrians, I assume that you mean the one where the girl had been drinking in a park all day and stepped out into the road in front of the cyclist. He shouted to warn her that he was there, which is actually quicker than reaching for a bell or horn, and then he hit her, with tragic consequences which no-one suggests were what he intended. It's sad when things like this happen but I felt sorry for him.

Onto the main point; if an experienced cyclist like this chap can have an accident like this when a drunk pedestrian walks out right in front of him, is not the risk of similar incidents, with less experienced riders on heavier bikes, greater? OK, take a tiny risk and increase it, and do you get still get an almost as tiny risk or a significant one?

I would have supported the 20mph limit were it not for my own experience in riding my electric bike at 20+ mph, and how the reactions of pedestrians and motorists differed from when I have ridden my non-electric bike at the same speed. Simply, when on an electric bike, clearly exerting only moderate effort, and not looking like a fast cyclist, I found that others constantly under-estimated my speed with many walking or pulling out in front of me. This happens far less on an ordinary bike, where posture and other factors make people expect greater speed. My concern, therefore, is that the risk might become significant. I wonder what the experience was in Germany?

 

[flecc]

I think the difficulty, and expense, arises when you try to approve bicycle type frames and components for motor cycle speeds.

Nick

In theory that would be true for higher speed two wheelers Nick, but we're not permitted them in the UK so it doesn't apply to us. Most of the additional costs apply to the enhanced test, which doesn't apply for our amateur constructor purposes.

The first group, low powered moped is clearly for bicycle like vehicles so we can make full use of the low fees:

Low power moped (A moped with pedals, with an auxiliary propulsion not exceeding 1kw, and a maximum design speed not exceeding 25km/h [16mph])

The equivalent low cost scheme in Germany would I feel sure be much cheaper than the €3000 for the full test that manufacturers use, even with some additional costs. They already have the higher speed bicycle types permitted, so there could be no objection to cycle frame type structures there. I'm speaking of 45 kph of course.
.

 

[Alex728]

As there are so few incidents where cyclists kill pedestrians, I assume that you mean the one where the girl had been drinking in a park all day and stepped out into the road in front of the cyclist. He shouted to warn her that he was there, which is actually quicker than reaching for a bell or horn, and then he hit her, with tragic consequences which no-one suggests were what he intended. It's sad when things like this happen but I felt sorry for him.

it was a case in SE England, and as they are uncommon may have been the same one - although one level the parents managed to get the tabloids on-side and hide the fact she was drinking, if she wasn't drunk to the point where the cops could nick her then she is still entitled to walk (or stagger) across the highway without risk of being run down by any sort of wheeled vehicle.

I certainly don't think for one moment the guy intended to crash into her (especially not on a custom carbon fibre racer costing nearly £5000) but he even admitted in Court if he had slowed down or jammed on his brakes the collission may have been less severe.

other road users - both pedestrians and my motoring friends always underestimate the speed of bicycles (powered or otherwise).

I do think there is a greater risk if more people were able to go faster in crowded urban areas with less effort, on both my normal bike and ebike I do keep my speed slightly lower in urban Ipswich compared to say Mid Suffolk where there is more space. Even then animals wandering in the road (rabbits, badgers, cats etc) become a potential hazard at speed.

Even in "more cycling friendly" nations such as DE and NL I've read that cycling infrastructure is variable depending on which area you are in, some places are as bad as England...