Hopes for 20 mph assist limit dashed

[flecc]

I wonder if the Swiss will continue to thumb their noses at the EU by continuing with their own set of (in my view) sensible rules on a higher maximum speed? If so, the opportunity will continue for EU Europeans to cross the border and buy, for, ahem, off road use only, pedelecs with higher speeds than available in their own countries.

Heinzmann have been making motor versions for the high speed class and will still make them available to special order, so the door is open for illegality.

I'm sure the Swiss will take no notice of Germany's outlawing of this class after such a brief time with it. Switzerland has had the high speed class for a long time.
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[rog_london]

It's a bicycle....

I think it's rather too easy to take one's eye off the ball here. The idea is not to allow you to go faster than a fit cyclist on a road bike could manage, but to take some of the pain out of getting up hills and to assist - the operative word - the less fit and the heavier among us to use a bicycle effectively. I suppose 15 mph is considered a reasonable average speed for a cyclist, and to fit in with that, the legislation regarding motor power and when it's available and when it's not has come along.

If you want to go faster than 15mph you can - but only under your own steam. There's nothing unreasonable about that. Of course, you can go a LOT faster than that, and under power - but then you don't benefit from riding a 'bicycle' because it becomes a powered motor vehicle, with insurance, licence, and all the other paraphernalia put there to protect us from ourselves and each other.

All the arguments along the lines of 'If only we could have a little more power, and/or go a few mph faster' tend to lose sight of the fact that it's an assisted bicycle. In my long motorcycling career I've heard the same argument put forward about mopeds - 30mph and weedy acceleration make a moped rider vulnerable, and it's a much better idea to have more power available to 'get out of trouble'. Or, of course, pass a proper test and get a proper motorbike. The power and the speed you seek are all available, and if you feel the need then maybe an e-bike is not what you should be using.

My limited experience as a new e-biker is that it's fun in its own right, and the perceived limitations just mean that it's different. It's easy to ride the Wisper round here at 20mph average, and London area traffic doesn't usually manage to go much faster than that - often a good deal slower. Also, if I can use the pavement and take it on the train, I can go anywhere at all. It gets me out and pedalling, which I know I wouldn't do without the 'assistance', and there's some slight satisfaction in the fact that the Wisper lets me cheat a little on the 15mph limit. Not enough to attract unwelcome attention from the police, though.

Rog.

 

[flecc]

Of course Austria is in the EU, and it seems they even ride fast electric motorcycles on cyclepaths with impunity there!

I've no idea of their legal status though.
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[torrent99]

. Also, if I can use the pavement and take it on the train, I can go anywhere at all. It gets me out and pedalling, which I know I wouldn't do without the 'assistance', and there's some slight satisfaction in the fact that the Wisper lets me cheat a little on the 15mph limit. Not enough to attract unwelcome attention from the police, though.

Rog.

Indeed for me this is the key difference between my Wisper on the throttle and a scooter.

With the e-bike I can use cycle paths, take it on a train, lock it up virtually anywhere, carry it up steps etc. I can even carry my 20month son on the back (not possible AFAIK on a scooter). It's relatively easy to walk with (& a little bit of throttle really helps here ). I don't need a helmet, or an MOT.
It's easily maintainable with very few tools. There's a massive selection of alternate parts which are generally interchangeable (i.e. I don't need Wisper brakes for my Wisper bike)

For these advantages I'm more than happy not to have the extra speed of a scooter. A bit more power (not speed, power) to get up the hills would be nice though....;-)

 

[Tiberius]

It's not an idea Nick, it's EU law as part of harmonisation. The legal principle is that any citizen of the EU is entitled to any benefit enjoyed by any other EU citizens.

It can't be as simple as that. Brothels are legal in some EU states; Holland is lax on some drug laws; the drink driving limit varies from country to country.

What does apply is that as an EU citizen you can go to these places and have the same benefits as the locals. That's not the same as being able to do the same in Aberdeen as you do in Vienna.

The rules may apply equally to every citizen, but that doesn't mean they are the same all locations. Local variations are possible.

Nick

 

[the_killjoy]

I do agree that the problem is the power limit rather than the speed limit; and I would like to be able to go up hills without slowing down rather than having any great wish to go faster (although 20mph would be better. )

We must bear in mind that these are basically 'ordinary' bikes with their inherient limitations on brakes and safety, would you feel comfortable having to do an emergency stop at 30 mph?

 

[Mussels]

I do agree that the problem is the power limit rather than the speed limit; and I would like to be able to go up hills without slowing down rather than having any great wish to go faster (although 20mph would be better. )

We must bear in mind that these are basically 'ordinary' bikes with their inherient limitations on brakes and safety, would you feel comfortable having to do an emergency stop at 30 mph?

I would be quite happy doing an emergency stop at 30mph, I often ride over 40mph at times as do many bikes. The only thing that would worry me is the lack of a brake light.

 

[HarryB]

In town the 20 mph limit would make perfect sense. Many towns/cities have or are considering a 20 mph limit in built up areas (Portsmouth?). Less overtaking is obviously safer - I certainly do not appreciate being skimmed by drivers going passed at 30 mph. One thing I noticed in the 3 years since going electric was that it became safer. I haven't had a vehicle turn left on me ever on an electric bike but it used to happen weekly on a normal bike - that extra speed is all it takes. Riding at the same speed as the traffic is a no-brainer for me.

 

[flecc]

The rules may apply equally to every citizen, but that doesn't mean they are the same all locations. Local variations are possible.

Nick

Of course, as I posted it's a legal principle, and as I've remarked before, each case has to be presented. However the presumption is entitlement and that presumption has to be opposed.

The real problem is the time factor though, the total involved including the sort of delays there are in UK legislation means at least five years and probably a couple more even if successful. It's academic now that the German situation has changed, the UK would never lead in such a move.
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[Patrick]

I would be quite happy doing an emergency stop at 30mph, I often ride over 40mph at times as do many bikes. The only thing that would worry me is the lack of a brake light.

But would a complete novice who has never been out on any sort of bike before be OK doing an emergancy stop at 30mph? As long as there is no requirement for someone to take some sort of test before riding an ebike then the legal limits need to allow for overenthusiastic beginers.

Yes cyclists can ride over 40mph unassisted, but to do so takes skill and stamina, so the cyclist that are capable of these speeds tend to be experienced. This need to build up to riding at speed seems to work reasonaby well in lieu of a formal test.

 

[flecc]

In town the 20 mph limit would make perfect sense. Many towns/cities have or are considering a 20 mph limit in built up areas (Portsmouth?). Less overtaking is obviously safer - I certainly do not appreciate being skimmed by drivers going passed at 30 mph. One thing I noticed in the 3 years since going electric was that it became safer. I haven't had a vehicle turn left on me ever on an electric bike but it used to happen weekly on a normal bike - that extra speed is all it takes. Riding at the same speed as the traffic is a no-brainer for me.

It would certainly make even more sense if a city like London had a universal 20 mph speed limit in residential and shopping areas of the sort the former mayor proposed, since that would leave all traffic at potentially the same speed over very large areas. That could bring a large reduction in accidents, deaths and injuries.
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[torrent99]

It would certainly make even more sense if a city like London had a universal 20 mph speed limit in residential and shopping areas of the sort the former mayor proposed, since that would leave all traffic at potentially the same speed over very large areas. That could bring a large reduction in accidents, deaths and injuries.
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And possibly even, less traffic jams... (less sudden braking, smoother flows, higher possible density)

 

[flecc]

And possibly even, less traffic jams... (less sudden braking, smoother flows, higher possible density)

Yes indeed, and there would no longer be any point in the traffic lights "Grand Prix" start that's the source of some accidents at present.
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[flecc]

Germany was not the only exception in the EU where e-bike speed is concerned.

As a member nation is entitled to, Sweden has varied the EU law on standard e-bikes and permits 30 kph (18.6 mph). However they've also imposed compulsory helmet wearing and third party insurance, so the small gain is offset by substantial inconveniences. In addition their minimum age limit is 15 years against 14 in the UK.
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[The Maestro]

It would certainly make even more sense if a city like London had a universal 20 mph speed limit in residential and shopping areas of the sort the former mayor proposed, since that would leave all traffic at potentially the same speed over very large areas. That could bring a large reduction in accidents, deaths and injuries.
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If policy makers were really concerned about safety then the maximum allowed speed should (roughly) be in inverse proportion to the size and weight of the particular vehicle. Some modification would have to be made to this formula based on the shape of the vehicle.

Following this formula buses would be limited to a maximum of 1 mph (not much difference there), cars to about 3 mph and bicyles to about 100.

More seriously, the risk rises exponentially with speed so I'd have a cap of 25 mph for all vehicles in city centers and limit buses to 10, cars to 15 and bicycles to 25.

 

[john]

In town the 20 mph limit would make perfect sense. Many towns/cities have or are considering a 20 mph limit in built up areas (Portsmouth?). Less overtaking is obviously safer - I certainly do not appreciate being skimmed by drivers going passed at 30 mph. One thing I noticed in the 3 years since going electric was that it became safer. I haven't had a vehicle turn left on me ever on an electric bike but it used to happen weekly on a normal bike - that extra speed is all it takes. Riding at the same speed as the traffic is a no-brainer for me.

Totally agree!

 

[carpetbagger]

I think 20mph would be good for ebikes,after all lots of riders travel far in excess of that....the 4x4 thing doesn't wash though,,,firstly i have one !.
Its not the car but the imbecile who drives it or any other vehicle thats the problem..On Loose Women the other day that Carol woman said somthing about being stuck behind a 4x4 whilst driving in the snow amd her coment was that you only get them to fast in the snow...just goes to show how brain dead she is....she doesn't realise that you drive according to the conditions that you are faced with..just because you can accelerate faster because of superior traction doesn't mean that you can stop...as shown by the 4x4 that hit the BT roadside cabinet knocking hundreds of phones off.
Many a time when its snowing or icy i have some nutcase 2 yards from my back bumper ..making me go even slower.......
So lay off 4x4s please and aim it at people who shouldn't be driving or even riding anything on the road because they are obviously not cut out for it !!

rant over.....goodnight and sleep safe and tight fellow ebikers

 

[flecc]

I've been trying to find out more about the reasons for the German change of heart. All that is known is that the scale of sales of Flyer S models, high power BionX, high speed Heinzmann etc, and more high speed models like the Kalkhoff S model coming onto the market, the authorities got a bit alarmed.

It's thought this could have an effect on the whole market with an important outlet for the high speed models gone.
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[Alex728]

stick a link up when you can find one, although my German is only high school level I'm willing to plug away at it to get some info out of it...

 

[The Maestro]

stick a link up when you can find one, although my German is only high school level I'm willing to plug away at it to get some info out of it...

mine hund hat keine nase