Hopes for 20 mph assist limit dashed

[flecc]

A to B magazine issue 70 (March) reports that the high speed e-bike class in Germany has now been outlawed, due to it's success.

Presumably this means it's adoption by users was so widespread it threatened to become the de facto standard in lieu of the EU 25 kph (15.5 mph).

The brief existence of that class in Germany was our one slim hope of getting a similar class in the UK, but with that German example seemingly embarrassing the authorities there, we can be sure now that it will not happen in the UK in the foreseeable future.

Can any German member give us more background?
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[Footie]

Shame, was it due to safety, or was it a loss of government revenue?

With the recession hitting hard countries can't absorb massive tax losses by it's people switching to free (or low taxed) transport.
Governments can hardly start banging on the tax, on alternative transport, if it gets too popular - makes them look stupid and anti green.
To get away with that, they’ll have to wait until all the governments start doing it – which won’t be long at this rate
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[flecc]

I don't know Footie, though I very much doubt it was fiscal. Any loss due to people using these instead of mopeds would be insignificant, since moped tax is very low everywhere.

I think it's more likely to be the reason I suggested, and other EU governments may be involved. I won't have been the only one remarking that their law legally entitled all other EU countries to the same, and with many EU countries governments very much opposed to higher speeds, it's possible they've put some pressure on the German government to abandon this class while not well established.

Maybe a German member like qeeme can cast more light on this.
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[Pedro62]

What is the problem? I ride my Ezee at 20mph everywhere

 

[flecc]

What is the problem? I ride my Ezee at 20mph everywhere

By law in the UK, the motor assistance cuts off at 15 mph, and in the EU at 25 kph. Many would like that increased to 20 mph.

You may be using your eZee derestricted with motor assistance to 20 mph, but you could be prosecuted for doing that.
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[Footie]

.... I think it's more likely to be the reason I suggested, and other EU governments may be involved. I won't have been the only one remarking that their law legally entitled all other EU countries to the same, and with many EU countries governments very much opposed to higher speeds, it's possible they've put some pressure on the German government to abandon this class while not well established ....

In truth, a higher speed of 20 mph would've been a big boost for ebikes (green transport) making them much more sort after.
I still reckon there's a financial influence here, in the background - road tax, fuel tax, insurance tax, it all mounts up
It's amazing how narrow minded governments can be
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[Citrus]

Floodgate issue

If the max. limit had been set at 20mph, then what next? Would people then be asking for a 25mph limit? This is well into moped territory where a licence, tax, insurance all apply. Even at 20mph assist I am not entirely convinced it is needed.

By the way, the above contradicts previous posts of mine as I bought a 500w Cyclone kit not that long ago, which is clearly illegal. However I am no longer using it (more on that when I post about it at a later date). I have switched back to a front hub 250w Suzhou Bafang motor, which is legal.

My own opinion is that ebikes/pedelecs assist you upto 15.5mph and then you are on your own, where at that speed it is nearly always very easy to pedal. Going up hills/into headwinds then the assist keeps you at 13-15mph. If you want a fast bike, lose weight, buy a racer and some lycra and join a cycle club. Or buy a moped/emoped. Fast ebikes/pedelecs are a moot point due to fact that assist is only legally upto 15.5mph - after that it is the rider making the bike fast, and hence making the battery last longer as it is not being used.

 

[Alex728]

Germany is (or was) a lot more greener than England - and in most EU nations the costs of dealing with petrolhead culture (particularly dealing with the effects of pollution and colissions - actually outweighs the revenue from taxation.

And as flecc points out moped taxation isn't exactly excessive

I suspect more there is a genuine safety issue.

As rare as injury/fatal cyclist vs pedestrian RTC's are, they do actually happen and all the ones I have read about involve a rider going at >15 mph.

recently some lycra type actually ran down and killed a girl and didnt' even get jail - had even told the girl to get out the way but she panicked and "didn't move in time.. " he had no right to even tell her to move but did so (and allegedly showed no remorse in Court whatsoever and still cycles)

OK all you dudes are sensible and could handle 20mph ebikes, but just think about what will happen when your average chav can afford (or steal) one and starts riding it on the shared use pavements - or just someone who is a bit angry/distracted...

the CBT (moped) rules are already widely flouted by peopel until the cops actually catch up with those riding overpowered bikes or on expired CBT's

 

[Footie]

If the max. limit had been set at 20mph, then what next? Would people then be asking for a 25mph limit? This is well into moped territory where a licence, tax, insurance all apply. Even at 20mph assist I am not entirely convinced it is needed.

By the way, the above contradicts previous posts of mine as I bought a 500w Cyclone kit not that long ago, which is clearly illegal. However I am no longer using it (more on that when I post about it at a later date). I have switched back to a front hub 250w Suzhou Bafang motor, which is legal.

My own opinion is that ebikes/pedelecs assist you upto 15.5mph and then you are on your own, where at that speed it is nearly always very easy to pedal. Going up hills/into headwinds then the assist keeps you at 13-15mph. If you want a fast bike, lose weight, buy a racer and some lycra and join a cycle club. Or buy a moped/emoped. Fast ebikes/pedelecs are a moot point due to fact that assist is only legally upto 15.5mph - after that it is the rider making the bike fast, and hence making the battery last longer as it is not being used.

Where the roads are flat, straight and have good visibility then a maximum assisted speed of 15.5mph is probably fine.
However, here in Cornwall were we have hills, blind bends and every second car is a bloody great 4x4 hurtling along at 60mph, cycling at 15.5mph is not for the faint hearted - the faster you can get up the hill and round (and clear) of the blind bend the better.
A 4x4 suppository is not good for you
In this a part of the country 20mph would be a safer speed and would get my vote.

PS: I don't cycle on pavements for safety reasons
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[Citrus]

Where the roads are flat, straight and have good visibility then a maximum assisted speed of 15.5mph is probably fine.
However, here in Cornwall were we have hills, blind bends and every second car is a bloody great 4x4 hurtling along at 60mph, cycling at 15.5mph is not for the faint hearted - the faster you can get up the hill and round (and clear) of the blind bend the better.
A 4x4 suppository is not good for you
In this a part of the country 20mph would be a safer speed and would get my vote.

PS: I don't cycle on pavements for safety reasons
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20mph would be a safer speed in your part of the country - based on what? 20mph assisted will only equate to a few mph faster going up a hill. A 60mph 4x4 is still going to be right on your tail desperate to overtake. By the way, my commute to work is 19 miles over quite a few hills in central Scotland. We do have cars up here and the occassional 4x4 and based on my short experience with a 500w Cyclone kit capable of 23mph unassisted on the flat and 15-16mph up steep hills with rider help - it makes no difference to how drivers treat you. Your reactions and brakes need to be better though.

 

[prState]

No one suggested this yet, but is it because they think kids will be on them at those higher speeds? (which maybe they are in Germany, I don't know)

At any rate, I wouldn't be surprised if thepeople making the laws have no personal experience with e-bikes, and possibly just responding to whatever kneejerk thing might have happened.

 

[essexman]

I think the safety angle purely on its own is obviously wrong. An HGV is more dangerous and yet they are allowed.

Maybe theres scope for a class between mopeds and bikes, a sort of bike plus class? Some training and an MOT maybe but no tax?

Mind in germany i think they have MOT for bikes anyway.

Either way 15 mph seems a little slow , if they settled on say 17mph i'd be happy.

 

[Mussels]

I think the safety angle purely on its own is obviously wrong. An HGV is more dangerous and yet they are allowed.

Maybe theres scope for a class between mopeds and bikes, a sort of bike plus class? Some training and an MOT maybe but no tax?

Mind in germany i think they have MOT for bikes anyway.

Either way 15 mph seems a little slow , if they settled on say 17mph i'd be happy.

Any in between class won't be allowed on cycle paths and then there is little point, I'd rather pay the extra and get a proper moped. Apart from distance commuters racing out of the city most cyclists I see are riding between 10 and 15mph so electric assistance is very unlikely to be allowed past that point.

 

[Tiberius]

I'm always suspicious of these arguments that faster speed and more power is actually safer. A common cry, for instance, is that people need to be able to "accelerate out of danger".

This is a typical biassed argument that ignores elements of the bigger picture, such as how they got into danger in the first place, and what they will do after accelerating. Get into more danger, perhaps, and need more acceleration.

It reminds me of the the things we used to hear about how seatbelts will hurt you in certain types of accidents, smoking is actually good for the nation, and helmets cause injuries (oops, sorry about that last one).

By the way, the e-bike limits in the USA are 20 mph and 750 W, a big step up from Europe. Individual states can vary those limits; I think they can vary them up or down. The general principle in the EU is that once the EC makes a Decision to permit something, the member states have to put that in their legislation. They are allowed to be more liberal (ie, to permit more) but not to be more restrictive. In the case of e-bikes, it looks as if Germany was being more liberal, but that did not necessarily mean that other states had to follow.

I don't think this idea that if its permitted in one EU state it has to be permitted in all of them is correct. Try arguing you should be allowed to drive on the right along the M4.

Nick

 

[Footie]

20mph would be a safer speed in your part of the country - based on what? 20mph assisted will only equate to a few mph faster going up a hill. A 60mph 4x4 is still going to be right on your tail desperate to overtake. By the way, my commute to work is 19 miles over quite a few hills in central Scotland. We do have cars up here and the occassional 4x4 and based on my short experience with a 500w Cyclone kit capable of 23mph unassisted on the flat and 15-16mph up steep hills with rider help - it makes no difference to how drivers treat you. Your reactions and brakes need to be better though.

I think you just answered your own question.
I've driven a motorbike in Scotland (top to bottom - great roads) and the hills there are nothing like Cornwall. I'm talking about hills that rise far more sharply.
My low speed means I spend far too long in the danger zones (on hills and hills with blind bends).
ALL my near misses have been when I've been going slow (usually up hill) - never when travelling at 16mph.
A few mph faster makes me a harder target to catch up with and hit. There’s no doubt in my mind, that sooner or later an asswipe 4x4 will hit me.

My speed data:
Speed on flat 16mph (with input from me).
Speed up hill 7-8mph (with a hell of a lot of input from me).

20mph on flat and 15mph uphill sounds like heaven - if only
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[torrent99]

I think you just answered your own question.
I've driven a motorbike in Scotland (top to bottom - great roads) and the hills there are nothing like Cornwall. I'm talking about hills that rise far more sharply.
My low speed means I spend far too long in the danger zones (on hills and hills with blind bends).
ALL my near misses have been when I've been going slow (usually up hill) - never when travelling at 16mph.
A few mph faster makes me a harder target to catch up with and hit. There’s no doubt in my mind, that sooner or later an asswipe 4x4 will hit me.

My speed data:
Speed on flat 16mph (with input from me).
Speed up hill 7-8mph (with a hell of a lot of input from me).

20mph on flat and 15mph uphill sounds like heaven - if only
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I posted my idea about this a while back....

Basically the problem is lack of power for climbing hills (in your case at 15mph!).

What would be good is for the law to lift the maximum power restriction so you can have very powerful motors to get up the hills. You then have that controlled electronically so that:
a) It can't exceed 15mph without you out pedalling it.
b) It accelerates (i.e. acceleration is limited) as if it were a lower powered motor but compensating when more power is required.

So it's safe (because it's less likely to blast away out of control), but also goes up the hills.

As flecc pointed out at the time this is very unlikely to happen a) because the law is extremely unlikely to change b) the electronics (well the programming actually as existing controllers have the necessary electronics) development cost.

 

[john]

If the max. limit had been set at 20mph, then what next? Would people then be asking for a 25mph limit? This is well into moped territory where a licence, tax, insurance all apply. Even at 20mph assist I am not entirely convinced it is needed.

To me a moped is not much of an alternative to an ebike if you want to go faster (e.g. 20 mph). They use too much petrol, are noisy, smelly and you cannot pedal to keep warm and fit. There are electric versions but are they any good? Perhaps the most expensive ones are.

I would have no problem with needing a licence, tax(?) and insurance to legally go faster.

 

[The Maestro]

My basic safety strategy for riding a bicycle (which I also follow on motorbikes) is to try and stay ahead of other traffic where I can be seen. This goes especially for tricky sections of road when drivers are distracted, e.g. junctions etc. I'd rather have drivers passing me on long straight stretches of road than be mixed up with them at junctions so I try to get out of the flow of traffic at these points. Extra speed definately helps here - crossing danger zones as fast as possible. I also personally find that drivers will more often than not tollerate being stuck behind a cyclist doing 20+ mph in busy town traffic but if you are doing 10-15 mph their hands often seem to become physically attached to their horn. I found this out to my horror when I initially got my electric bike and it was restricted.

In short you should do the appropriate speed for the situation. The speed range of a normal bicyle with a normal rider on the flat is 0-25mph and the brakes (if well maintained) are fine for this speed. I'm certainly a lot less safe when I'm knackered and can't get up above 10-15mph. The extra speed I can produce when well rested is definately important for safety. Well my safety at least but I believe arguments about 3rd party safety when applied to bicycles are complete red herrings since they are many times safer than cars in that respect.

 

[Beanie101]

Swiss opt-out?

I wonder if the Swiss will continue to thumb their noses at the EU by continuing with their own set of (in my view) sensible rules on a higher maximum speed? If so, the opportunity will continue for EU Europeans to cross the border and buy, for, ahem, off road use only, pedelecs with higher speeds than available in their own countries.

 

[flecc]

I don't think this idea that if its permitted in one EU state it has to be permitted in all of them is correct. Try arguing you should be allowed to drive on the right along the M4.

Nick

It's not an idea Nick, it's EU law as part of harmonisation. The legal principle is that any citizen of the EU is entitled to any benefit enjoyed by any other EU citizens.

Driving on the wrong side of a road in an EU country cannot be represented as a benefit, but access to a class of vehicle previously denied can be. That's why the one hope we had for this class has now been lost with this change in Germany.
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