Hill climbing ability and range

[eddieo]

It's either the Shimano Alfine or the Nexus hub gears.

Cheers Dan/NRG

nexus not good? is this correct? kinda put of by NRG's report....dont think I'm a crank motor kinda guy anyway as I dont really like being told what to do!

Just looked at Dan's link again and the Yamaha Brace is a lovely looking bike

 

[flecc]

A2B thought the Yamaha system had some quirks to its operation and was not as well integrated as the Panasonic system. They thought is was 'Peaky' with an abrupt cutoff at 15mph leading to a strange on off effect when climbing hills, see the July 09 edition...

They are long term fans of the Panasonic system and I think just the fact that the characteristics were slightly different has affected their perceptions. To my knowledge nobody else who's tried the the Gepida has reported this, so I'd advise anyone to try for themselves and make their own judgment.

The Panasonic power phase down starts very early at 9.4 mph, so it's likely the very gradual nature of that makes other systems which maintain maximum power a bit longer seem more abrupt. With both systems, a simple change up of a gear avoids the cut-off motor speed zone and keeps them in the power band when hill climbing, so only someone not used to the system could suffer that anyway.
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[Gepida uk]

A2B thought the Yamaha system had some quirks to its operation and was not as well integrated as the Panasonic system. They thought is was 'Peaky' with an abrupt cutoff at 15mph leading to a strange on off effect when climbing hills, see the July 09 edition...

Hi NRG,

I have supplied a link to the extra energy .org European electric bike test that was held in Germany 2009 at their head quarters. The Gepida was said to be a very good bike. Almost 13,000 kilometres in two weeks! And all 28 Pedelec models from 22 manufacturers survived the strenuous 3-step test: ergonomics test, test rides by the masses and 10-day test rides with measuring equipment. With 21 bikes rated “Very good”, and 2 bikes rated “Good” the Test is mainly representative for the upper segment of the European electric bike market. In this massive European testing of these E-Bikes Gepida is the only one to use the Yamaha system, where there are more than one manufactures using the Panasonic, In my eyes I think it is a very good system and so did they. This was a scientific test and not just somebody’s opinion.
Spring 2009 Test: 21 Pedelecs rated “Very Good” - ExtraEnergy.org

 

[NRG]

I only wanted to point out that there's an alternative view point to the merits of the Yamaha system equally valid as other views and with respect the ExtraEnergy results are also based in part on sombodys subjective opnion.

 

[eddieo]

I have "an error in my syntax" which is preventing me downloading the full report...which is a shame as some interesting bikes in there

 

[Gepida uk]

I only wanted to point out that there's an alternative view point to the merits of the Yamaha system equally valid as other views and with respect the ExtraEnergy results are also based in part on sombodys subjective opnion.

Hi NRG,

Sorry If I came across a little abrupt I was just trying to put another opinion, I have copied an article link from the extra energy test which shows how they have been tested.
Revolutionary Testing Technology - ExtraEnergy.org

 

[HarryB]

Cheers Dan/NRG

nexus not good? is this correct? kinda put of by NRG's report....dont think I'm a crank motor kinda guy anyway as I dont really like being told what to do!

Just looked at Dan's link again and the Yamaha Brace is a lovely looking bike

The Alfine is much better than the Nexus, it at least allows you to change gear without stopping pedalling in much the same way as derailleurs. It is of course better to reduce your power when you change gear though as it gives the hub an easier time. The problem with the Nexus is that there can be no power at all going through the hub when you change gear. So when it is combined with the panasonic system you have to stop pedalling, wait for the motor to stop powering, then change gear - it make riding the bike quite ponderous if you have to change gear a lot (for example in traffic). This is the main reason I disliked my Agattu.

 

[daniel.weck]

This is the main reason I disliked my Agattu.

Interesting feedback. I've cycled with a few Sturmey Archer and SRAM gear hubs, and although I have to release some pressure on the pedals a little bit to achieve a smooth gear change, by no means I have to completely stop pedaling. I've never tried the Nexus-8, but I keep hearing great things about the Alfine-8 (apart from its price ).

 

[Gepida uk]

When using the Nexus 8 speed, you can still change gear whilst pedalling, you don’t have to completely stop, and It is still a very smooth clean gear change. I have not had the pleasure of using the Alfine 8 speed yet but would like to see what the real difference is.

 

[flecc]

Harry had the Nexus 7 on his Agattu, and that's a much older design. Shimano also claimed gear changing while pedalling was ok on that, but in my experience that hub worked best when pedalling was paused for the change.
.

 

[NRG]

...which, I would have thought, would cause you to loose momentum rapidly if climbing a steep hill...

 

[eddieo]

When using the Nexus 8 speed, you can still change gear whilst pedalling, you don’t have to completely stop, and It is still a very smooth clean gear change. I have not had the pleasure of using the Alfine 8 speed yet but would like to see what the real difference is.

So from this response shall I assume the bike has the nexus and not the Alfina hub? as you must have missed my earlier question.....

 

[flecc]

...which, I would have thought, would cause you to loose momentum rapidly if climbing a steep hill...

Yes indeed. I've always stressed that when riding systems like the Panasonic and Yamaha powered bikes with hub gears, it's desirable to anticipate the gear needed and complete the change before starting a climb.
.

 

[eddieo]

Yes indeed. I've always stressed that when riding systems like the Panasonic and Yamaha powered bikes with hub gears, it's desirable to anticipate the gear needed and complete the change before starting a climb.
.

even with an alfina hub? Does this apply to hub motored bikes like wisper as well? as I thought the beauty of the Alfina was that you could change gears when stopped......why cant you change on a hill?

 

[Patrick]

even with an alfina hub? Does this apply to hub motored bikes like wisper as well? as I thought the beauty of the Alfina was that you could change gears when stopped......why cant you change on a hill?

You need to take the strain off the gears while the cogs switch around, overwise it would be a lot like changing gear on a car without using the clutch.

 

[flecc]

As Patrick says, it's best to ease the pressure when changing in the interests of long gear hub life, regardless of what Shimano say.

Shimano have always designed their derailleurs to be the fastest changing ones, and in consequence have long been promoting their hub gears as equally capable of instant changing as a benefit over the competition.

They are indeed the fastest changing, but experience shows they don't take kindly to always changing under load. One experienced courier writing to VeloVision who prefers hub gears reckons he gets around six months from his hard worked hub gears before failure needing repair, not make dependent. Also I've noted hub gear fan Peter Eland, editor of VeloVision, has had a few hub gear failures including those from Shimano during VeloVision's life, so they are far from bomb proof.
.

 

[HarryB]

The Alfine is much better than the Nexus, it at least allows you to change gear without stopping pedalling in much the same way as derailleurs. It is of course better to reduce your power when you change gear though as it gives the hub an easier time. The problem with the Nexus is that there can be no power at all going through the hub when you change gear. So when it is combined with the panasonic system you have to stop pedalling, wait for the motor to stop powering, then change gear - it make riding the bike quite ponderous if you have to change gear a lot (for example in traffic). This is the main reason I disliked my Agattu.

Sorry I should have said Nexus 7 speed as the 8 speed is very similar to the Alfine in design so should pose no problem when connected to the Panasonic or Yamaha crank drives.

 

[eddieo]

so you cant change down as necessary when hill climbing without stopping peddling? I think I wil stick with derailleurs in that case.

are alfina hubs really a good idea on an E Bike??

 

[HarryB]

even with an alfina hub? Does this apply to hub motored bikes like wisper as well? as I thought the beauty of the Alfina was that you could change gears when stopped......why cant you change on a hill?

It will work better in the Wisper as when you stop pedalling there is no power going through the hub - with the Panasonic you have to wait a second for the power to die down. As far as I can tell we haven't had a hub failure in any of the 8 speeds yet amongst forum members so they seem pretty robust even when used with the panasonics. Penty of failures of the 7 speed though.

 

[HarryB]

so you cant change down as necessary when hill climbing without stopping peddling? I think I wil stick with derailleurs in that case.

Yes with the 7 speed but probably not with the 8 speed but it would be useful to hear how well it works on the pro-connect and if riders do stop pedalling. Still there are some advantages over the derailleurs in terms of maintanance and cleaning and if you do lots of miles then that can be a factor in choosing them.