Haibike Bosch or Yamaha

[Artstu]

Also have split diagrams of motor internals with part numbers attached. Which I know is something we have talked about with the Bosch.
I will have access to these internal spares in approx 4 weeks should they be required.

Have you got a part number and price for the smaller bearing on the pedal crank shaft, of which there are two of them, please?

 

[Martin@e-bikeshop]

Hi Artstu,

Is it one of our bikes? If so feel free to drop me an email where we will be sure to help you out with any spares / parts numbers.

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

Torque on Brose appears to be limited to 50nm
Torque on the chainring: 90 Nm (limiting torque to 50 Nm for protecting the switching periphery)

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.emotion-technologies.de/e-bike-infos/e-bike-pedelec-antriebe/brose/&prev=search

Although I imagine there is probably a dongle to derestrict this

Looks like a nice system. It is good to see more compeition as it makes everyone up their game.

The torque on ROTWILD Brose eMBTs are 90Nm (confirmed by its Frankfurt design team last week) - a 50% power advantage over Bosch.

The Rotwild's also much lighter than Yamaha or Bosch e-MTB, and has 14% greater battery capacity.

The Brose unit is silent because it incorporates a single-stage helical epicyclic gear train (difficult and costly to make). Bosch use cheaper spur gears so their motor makes a racket. The sound you get from noisy gears is the sound of them wearing out.

The Rotwild also offers much much higher ground clearance. Call in at our London and Suffolk stores if you'd like to try one, no need for an appointment.

 

[flecc]

The Brose unit is silent because it incorporates a single-stage helical epicyclic gear train (difficult and costly to make).

True of the Panasonic units too:

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

Looks good Flecc, the Panasonics I've tried make a noise so presumably someone got their gear tooth sums wrong?

Here are some Rotwild/Brose innards, interesting to compare the two approaches to the same challenge of motor shaft speed reduction/torque increase. I'm sure the Panasonic is cheaper to produce (so good 'cos enables lower e-bike price), but to my mind the Brose solution is very eloquent and far better able to stand the horrors of 30 stone blokes standing on the pedals up a Welsh mountain!

 

[mfj197]

The Bafang BBS01/02 use helical gears too, hence their quietness. The BBS01 is apparently 80Nm torque, so not quite up to the Brose but quite a bit more than Bosch and even Yamaha.

Edit: the Panasonic doesn't look like it's using epicyclic gearing, and nor does the BBS01. Interesting to see it on a crank drive courtesy of Brose, and I imagine it has significantly less wear as it is using 3 planetary gears rather than a single gear.

 

[flecc]

Looks good Flecc, the Panasonics I've tried make a noise so presumably someone got their gear tooth sums wrong?

I think it's as much motor noise due to their system, but I agree the Brose construction is to a much higher standard.
.

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

The Bafang BBS01/02 use helical gears too, hence their quietness. The BBS01 is apparently 80Nm torque, so not quite up to the Brose but quite a bit more than Bosch and even Yamaha.

Edit: the Panasonic doesn't look like it's using epicyclic gearing, and nor does the BBS01. Interesting to see it on a crank drive courtesy of Brose, and I imagine it has significantly less wear as it is using 3 planetary gears rather than a single gear.

Quite true, epicyclics are much better at dealing with loads because among other reasons they are self-aligning so loads are split evenly between the three, so they can be smaller for given load.

If you then add the helical tooth aspect it further increases ability to withstand loads without fatal tooth bend/distortion because tooth to tooth contact area is increased dramatically 'cos at least three teeth on each of the three planets are involved in transferring load at any given point in time (and space!) which means the whole drive unit can be smaller still. In simple cheaper spur gear set ups its often left to just one poor 'ole tooth, so it has to be massive to stand a chance of survival.

This is not rocket science and the chances are that very capable Yamaha and Bosch designers had pitched similarly eloquent designs to their masters ...but the masters (read: bean-counters) won. Not much comfort to Haibike owners but at least the Bosch designers can have a quiet "told-you-so" moment when they next meet the accountants, who have at long last accepted responsibility for their errors.

 

[flecc]

Edit: the Panasonic doesn't look like it's using epicyclic gearing

No, it's a direct transmission from the helical toothed motor shaft onto the large nylon helical gear on the chain sprocket output shaft. In use for over seven years now, wear does not appear to be a problem.
.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

It is good that torque is going up but I wonder what the limit from manufacturers like Shimano is. Perhaps we might get special ebike kit to handle this in the future though it would push prices up.

Lets just hope its not a speed pedelec as unfortunately we have decided not to adopt this and no-one appears to have registered one

Although like most people I am tired of that debate

 

[nhoj]

Which ever make you buy, first be sure it can be fixed when it goes wrong. Preferably fixed by any competent/practical user. Not only if you have to cart it to a dealer with secret tools.

 

[Izzyekerslike]

I have rode both systems, most recently the £2400 Yamaha powered trekking. I really like the way the power cuts in compared to the Bosch system. Given the choice of similar bikes I might be tempted to take the Yamaha, except..........yes there is always the except. If you saw a power and torque graph for the two systems, you would take the Bosch. The Bosch has 4 power levels while the Yamaha has 3. The Yamaha is a much simpler system while the Bosch is a tech freak's dream. There is the price difference, the Yamaha being less expensive. However the similar Bosch powered bike has better spec in the components. To summarize, it pretty much boils down to you get what you pay for. Try to get some test rides. You could write volumes and fail to convey the feeling you get in the first 200yards.

Cheers

Yamaha 2016 models come with 4 power levels.