Haibike amt pro. First impressions? ;)

[RobF]

Dealers that refuse to work on any EU purchased product's are suffering from ignorance and need to be enlightened before they loose Franchises and have visits from Trading Standards.

Only the supplying dealer has any legal obligation to the first owner of the bike.

As a retailer, Martin from e-bikeshop is quite within his rights to decline to deal with any customer to whom he has not sold a bike.

Trading Standards won't be interested.

The importer might not be happy with Martin if they felt he was not representing the brand correctly.

But the guy is that committed to Haibike, I think the importer needs him more than he needs them.

After all, he could always drop Haibike and turn his energy into promoting other brands, some of which he already sells.

 

[Sherman]

Lots of car retailers are franchises, this isn't the case in cycling, where many shops are fully independent. This is a crucial difference.

What if the independent shop goes belly up? Or if I or the shop moves. Then what?

Also, don't you (or the KTM hq in Austria) pay for the warranty work carried out in bike shops? So why should it matter where the warranty work is done? Unless the pay is way below what the shop normally charges their customers, then I can see why they are not keen to do it.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

What if the independent shop goes belly up? Or if I or the shop moves. Then what?

Also, don't you (or the KTM hq in Austria) pay for the warranty work carried out in bike shops? So why should it matter where the warranty work is done? Unless the pay is way below what the shop normally charges their customers, then I can see why they are not keen to do it.

I can only advise on what I know personally from 20 years working in the bike industry, so my comments ARE NOT just about KTM, they are about most brands I have worked with.

If a shop goes belly up, then there will be another dealership who'll take on responsibility for an area. Its also very much done on a case by case basis. For instance now, if someone has a KTM warranty that there is no longer a dealer to look at, we'll see what the problem actually is and the solution will depend on the problem.

If you give me some examples of specific problems, I can of course tell you how we'd suggest solving them in a specific case.

re, your second point. Most brands and KTM HQ in Austria is included in this don't pay for labour on warranty work to dealers, thats part of a dealers role, unless there is a specific need for some reason. Any parts are supplied by KTM, or the relevant component brand. So Shimano parts are supplied by Madison, Bosch, by Magura in Germany, Rockshox by Fishers, etc etc. This will be something thats managed by the dealer, so not something the end consumer really needs to worry about. But it is important you understand why another random dealer who happens to sell the same brand of bike, might not been keen to work on your bike for free. Especially if you've bypassed them and bought a bike from Europe to save money.

edit... also just realised you are in Finland, so all my comments may well not be relevant to the distribution models that work there.

 

[martinb]

It's not the minefield some make it out to be.
Are you saying there's different rules for some Manufactures than others within the EU?
We in the UK are in the EU and can freely exercise powers to buy from any member state not effecting either our rights as consumers or the Manufacturers that's the Law.
I asked Martin@ebike for some advice on accessories advertised on his web site which he refused to sell. That within his rights, warranty repairs if a franchised dealer would be another situation.

Mr KTM you may go on about the rembit and dollar etc but if there substantial cheaper elsewhere within the common market/ EEC you have a problem which needs addressing with the Manufacturer or Importer/Concessionaire regarding price structure

Don't shoot the messenger for a situation on prices of which I'm guessing you have more control than many here. I have not a clue to the price difference with regards to the KTM europen prices.

Though I can inform you we have just Purchased for our leasing side 25 BMW's and 25 VW's from Belgium to UK Spec at first they said they could not speak English and dd not have the computer codes to order RH drive.

One call to BMW and VW in the UK and both dealers phoned us back to apologise, orders now confirmed all we need to do is arrange collection when they arrive at the Belgium Dealers eight to twelve weeks.
Bear in mind we get fleet rates from both BMW and VW UK and these still work out at a 5.85% saving over our UK discount.

 

[martinb]

Finland is in the EU so the same applies

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

It's not the minefield some make it out to be.

true, in practice most problems are easily resolved, and warranty in the bike industry is always best solved with a pack of biscuits and a nice conversation. There is rarely any need to get heated or worried. In most cases if you are nice, things get sorted long long outside warranty periods and we've even be know to "warranty" things that are clearly crash damage because the customer has been nice and positive about everything.

Are you saying there's different rules for some Manufactures than others within the EU?

There are EU rules, and then these are implemented by each country in different ways and each brand in different ways.

We in the UK are in the EU and can freely exercise powers to buy from any member state not effecting either our rights as consumers or the Manufacturers that's the Law.
I asked Martin@ebike for some advice on accessories advertised on his web site which he refused to sell. That within his rights, warranty repairs if a franchised dealer would be another situation.

You can of course by from who ever you want anywhere in the world, but your contract of purchase is always with the person you bought it off. No brand is forced by any law to force its dealers to work on our support other dealers customers. Some do, and its common in some industries, but not so common in cycling, because the whole industry is attempting to support a network of independent shops for better or worse.

Mr KTM you may go on about the rembit and dollar etc but if there substantial cheaper elsewhere within the common market/ EEC you have a problem which needs addressing with the Manufacturer or Importer/Concessionaire regarding price structure

Agreed, we look after KTM in the UK, if the euro is weak, the prices here look high, and we miss out on some bike sales. But next year the € could be weak and we'll get more. Certainly a good number of UK dealers sell bikes back into Europe, so at the moment the power is with the dealers who've invested in stock, and they can charge pretty much what they like because people will buy it.

Don't shoot the messenger for a situation on prices of which I'm guessing you have more control than many here. I have not a clue to the price difference with regards to the KTM europen prices.

We set the prices at the start of the season the based on the €, from then on, it can go either way. If there was a dramatic change one way or other we could issue a half season new price list, but our bikes are still too cheap at RRP if anything compared to the competition (according to our dealers).

Though I can inform you we have just Purchased for our leasing side 25 BMW's and 25 VW's from Belgium to UK Spec at first they said they could not speak English and dd not have the computer codes to order RH drive.
One call to BMW and VW in the UK and both dealers phoned us back to apologise, orders now confirmed all we need to do is arrange collection when they arrive at the Belgium Dealers eight to twelve weeks.
Bear in mind we get fleet rates from both BMW and VW UK and these still work out at a 5.85% saving over our UK discount.

You're talking about a different industry that I have no knowledge of, so I can't comment really.

 

[earwig]

I complely agree with the ripoff prices in Uk compared with Germany. I considered a trip abroad to bring a bike back, but thought I would give the local dealer a chance, but he blew it. If we don't get the service from a lot of dealers here they don't deserve the sales.

 

[martinb]

Hi Mr KTM
I agree with most of your comments and have been in the Motor industry for 38 years and have both a MIMI and HND not that they have ever been useful.

Again all warranty claims are best approached in a friendly manner. Biscuits even better.......mmmmmmm Garibaldi for me

We were in the Past BMW and Honda main dealers until selling out to the dark side, for over 30 years ( best decision we ever made )

And yes we have seen the euro to pound situation before, remember 8 years ago and for the preceding few years every man and his dog were buying Cars from the continent. I would have thought they the manufacturers would have learnt.

I did not realise until googling your company details that KTM Motorcycles and Car ( x-Bow)to Cycles are separate businesses here in the UK. Did originally want a Macina, cannot remember the Model and our local Dealer red line who supplied my 400EXC soon to be changed or a 350EXCf offered me a good deal on the ebike £1995 and £250 discount had the Bosch performance line motor but June/July delivery and I believe its now priced at £2195?
Only bought the Haibike as 2nd choice but been delighted.
And Tim at Red Line, leases cars from whose got the best deal, though again I agree buying local helps for both buyer and seller

Still very surprised how much of a novelty my e-bike seems to be when out and about.
Europe I understand are selling 600,000+ a year, seems the UK market is yet to get going properly in comparison.

With regards to the following.

"There are EU rules, and then these are implemented by each country in different ways and each brand in different ways".

That's not supposed to be true and all rules and regulation regarding products are supposed to be harmonized ie the e-bike rules now to conform with the EU, yes I accept there's always going to be grey areas but in essence a level playing field.

 

[JohnCade]

I actually agree with you that e bikes should have the same European wide warranties as cars and motorbikes and TVs. In that you can get them fixed anywhere where they go wrong and not just where you bought them; and this has come up here before. Then I was arguing as you are that there should be a more modern warrenty system for a product like an e bike which is not that same as a pedal cycle. While KTM put the same points to me then as he is to you now. But the bicycle trade has always done things this way, and this way is not really suitable for complex motor driven bikes even if it is for pedal cycles.

But we are where we are however unsatisfactory it is, and if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. So if someone buys a bike abroad they will in all probability not get it repaired here under warranty and would have to send it back to where they bought it from. I suspect you may have an ongoing relationship with the dealer where you got your bike and he is doing you a favour. So your situation is not really representative.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Hi John.

I appreciate your points now as I did last time we discussed this, but I think you're thoughts on this point.

Then I was arguing as you are that there should be a more modern warrenty system for a product like an e bike which is not that same as a pedal cycle. While KTM put the same points to me then as he is to you now. But the bicycle trade has always done things this way, and this way is not really suitable for complex motor driven bikes even if it is for pedal cycles.

are where we differ. Everyone in the industry, government etc etc is trying to argue that pedelecs ARE pedal cycles, and hence all the legislation and support process are the same as pedal cycles. Ebikes are not complex, the modern systems are simply another bolt on component on a standard bicycle, just like suspension or braking components.

I appreciate there can be better support than is currently offered by the bike industry as a whole, but this is a system and process that have evolved to support a huge network of independent shops around Europe. I for one would think it was a shame, if bike shops went the way of TV, or Car shops with huge stores that are simply franchises of the brand.

 

[JohnCade]

Not sure the LBS selling the odd e bike would know where to start with most electrical and motor problems they might be faced with. I think these bikes are quite complex and I always used to buy a groupset and build my own road bikes.

 

[martinb]

HI John
I think your missing the point.
Whatever you buy in the EEC HAS the same legal warranty/guarantee be it a Kettle or a Ferrari, already.
Some dealers may not wish you to know this, but one call to either the Manufacturer or Trading Standards will confirm this in minutes.
Please don't send your strange Aunt round

If your local dealer is not being helpful ( as Mr KTM says there are some independents out there who are not Franchised who can do as they wish)

The handbooks supplied with any product in the EU have to be multilingual and have the warranty terms and conditions, contact details and will be most helpful to you, if any warranty situation arises.

With regard to Mr KTM's point, you cant stop progress and what ever the direction the ebike market takes will happen.

Do you, do your weekly family shop at small independents, I very much doubt it!!
I don't like Sunday opening but we have to give the service our customers expect.

 

[JohnCade]

HI John
I think your missing the point.
Whatever you buy in the EEC has the same legal warranty/guarantee be it a Kettle or a Ferrari.
some dealers may not wish you to know this, but one call to either the Manufacturer or Trading Standards will confirm this in minutes.

If your local dealer is not being helpful ( as Mr KTM says there are some independents out there who are not Franchised who can do as they wish)

The handbooks supplied with any product in the EU have to be multilingual and have the warranty terms and conditions, contact details and will be most helpful to you, if any warranty situation arises.

With regard to Mr KTM's point, you cant stop progress and what ever the direction the ebike market takes will happen.

Do you, do your weekly family shop at small independents, I very much doubt it!!
I don't like Sunday opening but we have to give the service our customers expect.

Maybe I am. But I think it will be difficult to get any work done under warranty for a bike bought abroad. The dealers will not want to know.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Not sure the LBS selling the odd e bike would know where to start with most electrical and motor problems they might be faced with. I think these bikes are quite complex and I always used to buy a groupset and build my own road bikes.

Yes, but if you took an eBike in from say, Cube, Trek, Scott, Haibike, or KTM - its a normal bike with a electric system strapped to it. So no dealer needs or indeed should go inside it, they simply send it off, like they do with suspension or any other complicated component.