Forget the rest look at this!!!!!!!!!!

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
So, applying the flecc formula to this 16 stone man on his remarkable bike which has been ‘Safety Approved by the British Board’ (amongst others) with its ‘patented Freewheel Chainwheel Setup’, when he is going up the 45% hill (where, by the way?) at 15 mph how much energy is the motor supplying?

129 x 9.81 x 6.7 mps x 0.5 (?) = 4239.39 watts

Some motor, eh?!?

Or have I made a mistake? It is now quite late...
Only a slight error within the equation but a quite large error in the amended result. The gradient fraction G for 45% is 0.45. Applying that reduces the watts to 3815.

However, you are more in the right direction than that since with such a steep incline it's advisable to use the sine[tan-1(rise/run)] amendment for the G value. Doing that brings G to 0.548 and the final wattage to 4646.
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daniel.weck

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 8, 2009
1,229
2
Say what ?



:p

Only a slight error within the equation but a quite large error in the amended result. The gradient fraction G for 45% is 0.45. Applying that reduces the watts to 3815.

However, you are more in the right direction than that since with such a steep incline it's advisable to use the sine[tan-1(rise/run)] amendment for the G value. Doing that brings G to 0.548 and the final wattage to 4646.
.
 

Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
919
1
Somerset
This is worth copy/pasting here, just in case it disappears one day! :p
.....
by using the Oxford Kit through your bicycle's gearing you are generating in excess of 2,300Watts .......

by reading this you understand that I take no responsibility at all ....
Most of this stuff would appear to be actionable: claims that contradict the laws of physics, such as gearing multiplies power, and the constant exhortations to break the law.

Maybe one of the straight retailers should report it to the ASA.

Nick
 

Orraman

Pedelecer
May 4, 2008
226
1
The photograph appears to show a Cyclone motor of at least 650W which the 'manufacturer' was "marked" as 250W.
The limit of the cyclist's responsibility is to ensure that the 'nameplate' on the motor complies with current regulations and not exceed 15mph but need not have a speedometer.

Cyclone motors from 180W to 360W are identical in case measurements, up to 500W the controller is integral to the case.
The 650W, 750W and 900W appear to use the longer 500W size casing but employ an external controller. As the 750W and 650W are the same price and only slightly cheaper than the 900W this may in fact be the motor that was on offer.

Tiberius,
Many ebay sellers make their own 'trading laws' and few consider that the Distance Selling Regulations apply to their "buy it now" items: with scant help available from legal bodies.

However, in the advert
"What's in the box:"
is legal.

It is a great pity that Tongxin and Cyclone motors have not been able to maintain normal sales outlets in the UK.

Dave
 

averhamdave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 13, 2009
340
-3
I see that late morning today he has pulled his auctions off e-bay (or they have removed them). Did anyone report him?
 

daniel.weck

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 8, 2009
1,229
2
I see that late morning today he has pulled his auctions off e-bay (or they have removed them). Did anyone report him?
This seller only had one item for sale, but bidding ended on 02 Nov, 2009 at 23:45:43 GMT so you won't find it anymore. However you can still click on the direct eBay link and/or read the auction text (copy/paste) here:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/4946-forget-rest-look-2.html#post62330

- EDIT - there was a 48V-900W version as well: http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/4946-forget-rest-look-5.html#post62504

Cheers, Dan
 
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daniel.weck

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 8, 2009
1,229
2
Cyclone are represented here now with a new dealer Dave:

Eclipse Bikes

Eclipse bikes on ebay
.
Thanks, I didn't realize that.

So, the eBay seller in question in this thread simply copy/pasted some text from Eclipse-Bikes and even "stole" the YouTube video (instead of just pointing to it)...

Did anyone report the guy to Eclipse-Bikes ?

Original:

YouTube - Kanal von epedalpower

250 Watt Electric Bike Kit Motor E-Bike Hub Alternative on eBay (end time 21-Nov-09 21:33:34 GMT)

Copy:

YouTube - Kanal von fastestebike

Oxford Gearbox 250W 24v electric bike Kit 0-30mph 5sec on eBay (end time 02-Nov-09 23:45:43 GMT)

Oxford Gearboxed 900W 48v electric bike Kit cruise50mph on eBay (end time 02-Nov-09 23:45:12 GMT)

Buyers, ... beware !! :eek:
 
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Orraman

Pedelecer
May 4, 2008
226
1
Thanks flecc,

I hope they stay longer than the earlier sellers. Good to know the are there 'though they don't stock the double freewheel motors, the prices are fair.

Dave
 

jerrysimon

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 27, 2009
3,292
112
Cambridge, UK
Wow just check his latest feedback that is enough to put anyone off :eek:

Regards

Jerry
 

Davall

Pedelecer
Oct 28, 2009
38
0
Flecc, your rough & ready calculation of power as force (i.e. weight) x vertical component of velocity is a good approximation at the low cycling speeds concerned.

If you haven't already seen it, I recently came across this calculator which you might also find of interest. It takes into account wind resistance and friction (which really only become significant at higher speeds, as you'll know).

It's very interesting to plug in different values to see the effect on the power required under different circumstances.

Cycling: Steady State Power Equation
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
Flecc, your rough & ready calculation of power as force (i.e. weight) x vertical component of velocity is a good approximation at the low cycling speeds concerned.

If you haven't already seen it, I recently came across this calculator which you might also find of interest. It takes into account wind resistance and friction (which really only become significant at higher speeds, as you'll know).

It's very interesting to plug in different values to see the effect on the power required under different circumstances.

Cycling: Steady State Power Equation
Thanks Davall, as you say though, my equation is ok for e-bike purposes since wind resistance and other factors are minimal at their climb speeds. It would be possible to improve the equation with a sub section adjusting the fixed factor with the gradient to allow for the change with varying steepness, instead of the switch from the G fraction to the alternative method. The added complexity would make it less instantly useful though.

I've got many equations and other valuable information in the cycling bible, "Bicycling Science" by David Gordon Wilson, though not my particular hill climb power one.

I still enjoy doing things the "hard" way rather than always using online calculators since full understanding is involved, and I compare it with the situation involving today's kids and calculators, many of them totally lost without one. There are many other comparisons of course, GPS against maps and GPS against charts and sextants for example.
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oriteroom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 13, 2008
297
110
Struggling with a factor of 10

Flecc, your rough & ready calculation of power as force (i.e. weight) x vertical component of velocity is a good approximation at the low cycling speeds concerned.

If you haven't already seen it, I recently came across this calculator which you might also find of interest. It takes into account wind resistance and friction (which really only become significant at higher speeds, as you'll know).

It's very interesting to plug in different values to see the effect on the power required under different circumstances.

Cycling: Steady State Power Equation

I'm stuggling with a factor of ten on trying to covert watts/calories used. Clearly I'm missing an important point. Asumming steady state conditions of a 70Kg man and 24kg bike cycling at 15 km/hr with no headwind on a flat road the value in watts used is 36 watts. Converting this to calories this equates to 8.6 calories (1 Ws = 0.238846 cal)
Assume an hour under constant conditions this equates to 30960 calories (36Ws x 3600s x .2388460) or 30.9 kcal - I thought general energy expenditure for average cycling was more like 300 kcal/hr. What am I missing or what's my fundamental error?

Thanks

Mike
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
Just a thought Mike, 15 kph is 9.4 mph, well short of average cycling speeds and the wattage will increase quite lot if adjusted to more common speeds. For example using your figures with different speeds:

at the utility riding speed of 12 mph it's 59 watts

at a typical MTB/e-bike rider speed of 15 mph it's 99 watts

at a typical club sport rider speed of 20 mph it's 205 watts

Other online calculators agree with your conversion and calculation so I also cannot see a point of error, despite the presence of a factor of 10 difference, which is also verified by the readouts from online cycling calculators. :confused:
.
 
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Davall

Pedelecer
Oct 28, 2009
38
0
Mike, I see nothing wrong with your calculation either, and I think there are two aspects to this.

I suspect part of the problem is in the interpretation of the 'average bike ride' which leads to the figure of 300 calories per hour sometimes quoted.

The kind of average bike ride being envisaged probably wouldn't be on a windless day on a perfectly flat road, but would likely involve a light breeze and some undulations. Once you start climbing any sort of hill, the energy consumption shoots up.

If we model the hour bike ride as something like 45 minutes of it spent cycling up gentle 5% slopes at 10kph and 15 minutes rolling back down at 30kph, that gives the same average of 15kph. With a light breeze of 6kph and the 'average' less than ideal tyres/surface (coeff. of resistance set at 0.01), the calculator now gives 165 watts for the hour rather than the original model's 36. That equates to 142 additional calories required, rather than 31.

But these figures would be true of a 100% efficient machine, which a human isn't of course. For the average Joe to supply 165 watts at the pedals, he would most probably be burning up an awful lot more internally. Much is given off as excess heat from the body, as all we cyclists know only too well! The average human is perhaps only 25% mechanically efficient, if that?

It's then easier to see how 31 calories on an ideal flat road with a 100% efficient machine might translate into ten times that on an undulating road powered by a human engine.

We know that 31 calories would be nowhere near enough, because a 70kg man burns up 60 calories per hour when simply sleeping -- something I'm about to put to the test incidentally..... :)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
So all up does that mean, the claims are impossible?
Providing the battery power is enough to sustain the motor?
The claims are ridiculous, regardless of the battery provided, the site text is full of nonsense. The Orient and particularly China is littered with sellers and manufacturers like this, sometimes not having a clue but more often just plain dishonest and deluded enough to think everyone else is stupid.

Yet another one was brought to my attention this morning.
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themutiny

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 26, 2009
354
0
I think the "error" is not realising that what we refer to as Calories are in actual fact Kilocalories in a nutrition context, ie 1000 Calories

All About Calories

Calories per minute (without assist)

12-14mph moderate = 13.1 cal per minute
14-16mph vigorous = 16.4 cal per minute
16-19mph (not drafting) = 19.7 cal per minute
20+ racing = 26.2 cal per minute

Obviously there are other factors such as weight, terrain, wind etc

Not that I'm obsessive or anything ;-)
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
30,555
I think the "error" is not realising that what we refer to as Calories are in actual fact Kilocalories in a nutrition context, ie 1000 Calories
No, if you look at our calculations, you'll see we have been correctly calculating both in kilocalories and calories where appropriate.

If that was our mistake, the apparent discrepancy wouldn't be the 10 times it is but 100 times.

Personally I prefer to stick to Watts in cycling calculations, using calories only for dietary and weight losing purposes.
.
 

Orraman

Pedelecer
May 4, 2008
226
1
Psycosis,

In post # 37 flecc answered your question and in post # 25 he kindly gave me links to Cyclone dealers.

For a more realistic idea of the capabilities of Cyclone motors in particular and I would imagine any good ebike you could visit cyclone-usa.com and click on Performance.
Do bear in mind that the tests were 90+% on power only and only on 350W which is similar in size to the 250W and on the 500W which has a longer case.

One weak point with these motors is the glue that holds the 'nameplate' which has fallen off one of my Cyclone motors.

Dave


Electric Bicycle Motor Kits from Cyclone-USA