Following on from my introduction to this forum I have questions

[Nealh]

One doesn't need to spend much on an ebike for day to day use , 4K is just so that one doesn't lose face with the club mates or ones ego.
Just look at SW and his pride and joy he has spent millions on , then his mate does him big time with a BBHSD on a stock mtb.

 

[LesG]

Yes.



No.



Depends on your settings. Set to low power assist mode if you don't like it.

Thanks for this reply, back to assist mode, if I peddle but my peddling speed does not catch up with the speed of the motor does that save anything off the battery at all or am I just using the same amount of battery as the throttle?
It may be a fault with the bike I have, but it seems that I have to turn off the ignition with the key to just use peddle power as on my panel it has 3 power modes and always starts on level 1, it doesn't appear to have level 0 for non peddle assist.
I am very sorry if I am asking really silly questions, please be patient with me while I learn.
Thanks
Les

 

[LesG]

Let's not forget Les is on a learning curve here. When you first get into e-bikes, your knowledge is next to zero. You have no idea what is good and what isn't, or what even suits you and your situation. Some people love mid drives, others hate them...there's a lot that comes down to personal preference.

I would much rather make my mistakes on a cheap bike that has issues which I can work on and learn something than blow serious money on something unsuitable that I won't learn anything from and I will end up not using.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you, the learning curve is STEEP!

 

[WheezyRider]

Thanks for this reply, back to assist mode, if I peddle but my peddling speed does not catch up with the speed of the motor does that save anything off the battery at all or am I just using the same amount of battery as the throttle?
It may be a fault with the bike I have, but it seems that I have to turn off the ignition with the key to just use peddle power as on my panel it has 3 power modes and always starts on level 1, it doesn't appear to have level 0 for non peddle assist.
I am very sorry if I am asking really silly questions, please be patient with me while I learn.
Thanks
Les

Don't worry, we all have to start somewhere

When you turn the pedals to activate the PAS, the motor will kick in and assist you. What decides the amount of power that comes from the battery is the amount of assist you have requested on the controller (this could be 0 to 5, sometimes 0 to 6) and the amount of effort you put in to turn the pedals. You could put in next to zero effort and just turn them around (sometimes called "ghost pedalling" (I hope I got the right spelling there, or Flecc will need to correct me! )).

Obviously, if you put in zero effort, the battery is doing all the work, not you. But you could be putting in a bit of effort, say about 100W, then when you cruise at about 25kph, the motor will be putting in about the same as you to maintain a steady speed on the flat. If you put in lots of effort, the motor will hardly be doing anything at all and once you go above 25kph, the motor will cut out and then it's all down to you to keep the bike at that speed.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

Even without the motor speed limit restriction, on my hub drive I feel I am doing most of my riding in the highlighted yellow zone where I am "approaching" the no load max speed of the motor and as I approach it, the motor gives less and less assistance, so even though I am riding in the top pedal assist level (5) I am still getting decentish range (70 ish miles) with a 720wh battery because the motor is on that downward power line)

As I ease off pedalling, and the speed drops slightly, the motor is actually giving more assistance and more power

 

[Az.]

Thanks for this reply, back to assist mode, if I peddle but my peddling speed does not catch up with the speed of the motor does that save anything off the battery at all or am I just using the same amount of battery as the throttle?

The more effort you make the longer your battery will last.

it seems that I have to turn off the ignition with the key to just use peddle power

Key you are referring to is probably key to lock your battery to battery holder. It doesn't work as ignition key.

on my panel it has 3 power modes and always starts on level 1, it doesn't appear to have level 0 for non peddle assist.

Check your manual. 1 might be mode without assistance or you might need to switch it off by holding power button.

 

[saneagle]

It may be a fault with the bike I have, but it seems that I have to turn off the ignition with the key to just use peddle power as on my panel it has 3 power modes and always starts on level 1, it doesn't appear to have level 0 for non peddle assist.

Every bike is wired differently for different reasons. Your key is wired to the throttle, so it switches it on and off. It's not an ignition key. Some bikes have a red button on the throttle for that. There is no ignition key on an ebike, only on/off switches. Your main on/off switch is on the control panel. You might have a battery isolator switch on the battery.

 

[AndyBike]

I would much rather make my mistakes on a cheap bike that has issues which I can work on and learn something than blow serious money on something unsuitable that I won't learn anything from and I will end up not using.

When I worked for a bike charity we had a huge number of bikes come in which we basically scrapped because they were the cheapest of the cheap.
People bought them, but found that the build quality was so poor that parts stopped working, drivetrains went out of sync, brakes, well, failed to brake.
So instead of getting out and about, the bike got consigned to the shed and there it stayed until; they had a clear out and we got given them.

A term was coined- BSO- Bicycle Shaped Object.

So people with little to no experience of bikes or bike maintainence were being put off from riding. They'd initially take it to their local bike shop but find repairs and servicing too expensive, and either from not having the money, or being unable to fix them themselves(for a host of reasons) they stopped cycling.

There is a certain level and starting cheap usually means the new cyclist is setting themselves up for a slew of headaches. Ebikes, even cheap ones cost a considerable amount, and someone who has spent more on a bike than they have ever spent on such really are surprised that it fails.
They dont want a 'learning curve' they just want to get out and enjoy the pastime.

So cheap puts people off.
OK I ride an expensive bike, I've built some 30 or so mostly expensive bikes. OK I have boxes and boxes of expensive components but thats just me from my experience of 30 years on what works and what doesnt.
This doesnt mean im only about expensive bikes. Im wholly about bikes that are fit for purpose. Bikes that are not like the thousands donated to bike charities or recyclers each and every year that in many cases have been ridden a handful of times from new.
I'm about bums on saddles. But bikes need to have a base standard and be fit for use.


I sometimes feel that some here, who are so so into stripping down motors, batteries, building batteries point new members towards bike they know will present issue, so they can then fully indulge in their chosen hobby and talk them through soldering up electrical components.

 

[LesG]

The more effort you make the longer your battery will last.

Thank you, that could go some way to explaining my poor mileage per charge, I think a lot of the time I have just been peddling, but really the motor has been doing the work.

Key you are referring to is probably key to lock your battery to battery holder. It doesn't work as ignition key.

There is a lock on the battery, but there is another on/off key (see attached photo ) this appears to turn on the display on the right hand throttle side to show the level of volts left in the battery and to turn on the assist mode and throttle whether.
The main display will only work when the on/off is switched to on though.

I chose the wrong terminology when I said "ignition" though, sorry about that



Check your manual. 1 might be mode without assistance or you might need to switch it off by holding power button.

Unfortunately I didn't get a manual with it, it just has 3 levels of assist, so it does appear that I have to turn off the on/off key if I want to ride like this.

Thanks Les

 

[LesG]

Every bike is wired differently for different reasons. Your key is wired to the throttle, so it switches it on and off. It's not an ignition key. Some bikes have a red button on the throttle for that. There is no ignition key on an ebike, only on/off switches. Your main on/off switch is on the control panel. You might have a battery isolator switch on the battery.

Thanks, yes, I used the wrong term when I called it ignition, my main on/off switch appears to be away from the main control panel as answered on the previous post, I just wish there was an all inclusive idiots guide to ebike and controls as I wouldn't have to keep asking silly questions on here

 

[LesG]

Don't worry, we all have to start somewhere

When you turn the pedals to activate the PAS, the motor will kick in and assist you. What decides the amount of power that comes from the battery is the amount of assist you have requested on the controller (this could be 0 to 5, sometimes 0 to 6) and the amount of effort you put in to turn the pedals. You could put in next to zero effort and just turn them around (sometimes called "ghost pedalling" (I hope I got the right spelling there, or Flecc will need to correct me! )).

Obviously, if you put in zero effort, the battery is doing all the work, not you. But you could be putting in a bit of effort, say about 100W, then when you cruise at about 25kph, the motor will be putting in about the same as you to maintain a steady speed on the flat. If you put in lots of effort, the motor will hardly be doing anything at all and once you go above 25kph, the motor will cut out and then it's all down to you to keep the bike at that speed.

That is a great explanation, thank you
Les

 

[cyclebuddy]

Thanks, yes, I used the wrong term when I called it ignition, my main on/off switch appears to be away from the main control panel as answered on the previous post, I just wish there was an all inclusive idiots guide to ebike and controls as I wouldn't have to keep asking silly questions on here

We all had "silly" questions when new. The best way to learn about your e-bike is to get out there and ride it. So long as you master the brakes so you can stop, there's little damage you can do. I went out early on a Sunday morning and cycled a deserted cycle path... nothing to hit, no one to inconvenience. Apart from how the buttons function* and what each does, you soon learn how far you can get, which has as much to do with how you ride as it is battery size.

* Always useful to google and download a manual for your display to understand what features your display has been programmed with. I remember on my first time out getting stuck on "cruise" by accident, having no idea what that was or how to stop the bike (tip: Brake!)

 

[saneagle]

When I worked for a bike charity we had a huge number of bikes come in which we basically scrapped because they were the cheapest of the cheap.
People bought them, but found that the build quality was so poor that parts stopped working, drivetrains went out of sync, brakes, well, failed to brake.
So instead of getting out and about, the bike got consigned to the shed and there it stayed until; they had a clear out and we got given them.

A term was coined- BSO- Bicycle Shaped Object.

So people with little to no experience of bikes or bike maintainence were being put off from riding. They'd initially take it to their local bike shop but find repairs and servicing too expensive, and either from not having the money, or being unable to fix them themselves(for a host of reasons) they stopped cycling.

There is a certain level and starting cheap usually means the new cyclist is setting themselves up for a slew of headaches. Ebikes, even cheap ones cost a considerable amount, and someone who has spent more on a bike than they have ever spent on such really are surprised that it fails.
They dont want a 'learning curve' they just want to get out and enjoy the pastime.

So cheap puts people off.
OK I ride an expensive bike, I've built some 30 or so mostly expensive bikes. OK I have boxes and boxes of expensive components but thats just me from my experience of 30 years on what works and what doesnt.
This doesnt mean im only about expensive bikes. Im wholly about bikes that are fit for purpose. Bikes that are not like the thousands donated to bike charities or recyclers each and every year that in many cases have been ridden a handful of times from new.
I'm about bums on saddles. But bikes need to have a base standard and be fit for use.


I sometimes feel that some here, who are so so into stripping down motors, batteries, building batteries point new members towards bike they know will present issue, so they can then fully indulge in their chosen hobby and talk them through soldering up electrical components.

You raise some good points. There are other considerations, though. Some people, who know nothing about bikes and have no tools, get a cheap catalogue bike, which is all they know and can afford. Like you say, they do no maintenance because they can't and eventually the bike can't be used any more until it's fixed, and they know that taking it to Halfords will cost more than the bike's worth. Eventually, it gets disposed of.

The people that have lots of money and know about bikes are happy to pay more for one, but then they care about it because of the cost, so they keep it properly maintained, or they're enthuiasts, who have tools and do their own maintenance. When they've spent £5000 on a bike, they're happy to pay £100 to Halfords to get a new cassette and shift cable when all they needed was a simple adjustment. The more expensive the bike, the quicker the components wear out because expensive normally means light weighjt, not durable.

Cheap components last extremely well if properly maintained. The cheaper unsealed bearings need more regular greasing, but that's only BBs, head-sets and pedal spindles. The gears last forever. In fact I proved that with my deep winter 1000 mile no-maintenance test on a £5 bike. There's no way I would do the same test on a £3000 Haibike.

 

[AndyBike]

My first bike was a 2nd hand 80 quid muddy fox. I think mostly Shimano LX mountain kit DX wheels
I had to learn to service it myself, but it was a basically good bike to begin with. My only form of transport. And I feel had I not started with a decent well made bike to begin with, I'd likely have been put off cycling.


When you have no money, you very quickly learn what is good and what isnt. What will keep running without constant attention and what causes you headaches. Plus when you see 1000 people bring in a cheap halfords or catalog bike showing the same or similar problems you get to know what is worth having.

Anyway, got to go, my new spray gun* has just arrived this very minute.

* Needless to say, this aint a cheapie

 

[Az.]

Unfortunately I didn't get a manual with it, it just has 3 levels of assist, so it does appear that I have to turn off the on/off key if I want to ride like this.

May I ask how much did you pay for this bike? There is a lot of wisdom in what Andy wrote. Maybe it would be wise to cut losses and start fresh? After all cycling should be enjoyable.

 

[WheezyRider]

I know people have spent serious money on bikes, gone for a few rides and then left them in the shed unused because they were pushed into a certain direction by sales staff and ended up with a bike that didn't suit. Also, some people I know bought a bike, rode to work a few times, got the crap scared out of them by drivers close passing and never got on them again.

I know people who have spent thousands on bikes and they have been very unreliable and have had issues with the shop/manufacturer trying to get them sorted. Paying a lot of money is no guarantee of quality and reliability. If you have not travelled the learning curve, you will not be able to differentiate between cheap but good and expensive but crap.

And as I have said, you make yourself a target for thieves and muggers if you have an expensive bike.

If you have a big disposable income and spending £3k to £5k is no problem for you, great, go ahead. But most people, especially in the current climate don't have that kind of money to experiment with.

Most people use a bike for short rides on roads and a lot of cheap bikes will last reasonably well in such conditions, even if not maintained that well.

If you spend £150 for a bike and it lasts 1 year without maintenance and you can't be bothered to upgrade the cheap parts, you are still better off than buying a £1000 bike that lasts a few years. For a fancy bike you can easily spend £150 on a single component. That's a whole year's biking budget blown!

When I worked in London, I could pay £150 a month on tube fares, or I could cycle. I bought a cheap bike (c. £100). I didn't have a decent lock and after 6 weeks it got stolen. It was annoying, but I still saved money. I bought a similar replacement with a better lock and that lasted me over a year and I then gave the bike away. This is the calculation a lot of people have to do, what is the cost of cycling, vs cost of public transport.

If you are really into your bikes, it is a serious hobby and you do a lot of off road serious riding in tough conditions, sure, get the best you can afford. But that is not the case for most people.

 

[Az.]

If you spend £150 for a bike and it lasts 1 year without maintenance and you can't be bothered to upgrade the cheap parts, you are still better off than buying a £1000 bike that lasts a few years.

So after 10 years you send 10 bikes to landfill?
I bought a bike 10 years ago. Paid £550 if I remember well. Still looks like new.

 

[WheezyRider]

So after 10 years you send 10 bikes to landfill?
I bought a bike 10 years ago. Paid £550 if I remember well. Still looks like new.

Ideally you wouldn't throw away a bike every year and get a new one, the chances are it would last a lot longer, even with cheap components and minimal maintenance. Also, in the second year it would be cheaper to start upgrading components, eg brakes, which seems to be the worst part on cheap bikes. For about £20 you can get a decent set of callipers and they are easy to fit. Gears would be the next thing, but that is not so critical, even cheap gear sets can last a long time. I would never recommend a cheap suspension bike, I'm talking about fixed frame with less to go wrong. I was mainly pointing to the cost/benefit analysis of cheap bikes, bearing in mind level of use etc. Some cheap bikes I have had over the years have lasted well over 10 years.

Your example is not an expensive bike, more my idea of mid range (£400 to £900), which brings comforts like smoother gear change components and disc brakes. If you have £400 to £900 available and you see a bike that suits you - go for it. But bear in mind what you would do if it got stolen etc. Could you replace it easily? Sadly to a certain extent you do have to consider a bike a consumable item, so for me, I find it hard to justify spending a lot on a bike. The most expensive bike I have ever bought was £800. It has already lasted a couple of years and it's nice to ride. But, I hardly end up riding it as I tend to worry about it in the rain, or taking it into town and leaving it locked up outside. So I ride my cheap bikes more often. I have done the upgrades, I know them inside out and they are a lot of fun because I can be more relaxed.

The other point to bear in mind about cheap bikes is that the "point of being beyond economical repair" is quite meaningless. Parts are quite cheap if bought online, but labour costs mean that unless you do the work yourself, you end up paying more than the bike is worth if getting more than very basic things done. This means perfectly good equipment gets scrapped. People need to look beyond the capital value of the bike and think about displaced costs. Eg, if you didn't have a bike, what would be your transport costs? If you bought a more expensive bike, would you spend any less on repairs? If you have a cheap bike, you might pay more than the bike is worth to fix it, but you would most likely still spend less than you would fixing an expensive bike.

Here is another example: I bought a fridge and a freezer 13 years ago. I got a basic fridge, it cost about £100. For the freezer I splashed out £1000 on a top of the range model, from one of the big German brands. The fridge is still going strong and has never missed a beat. The freezer died many years ago. It failed outside of warranty and it would cost too much to repair, so it was scrapped and replaced with a cheaper model. To give a good return, it should have lasted at least 10 years, but it didn't. Capital cost is no guarantee of longevity.

 

[Woosh]

I've still got a few bikes I bought 20-30 years ago in my shed. The price is not important in this regard. All it takes is to keep the tyres inflated, the mud off of the bike, the bike in the shed and give them a little grease now and then. It's really nothing much. I have never taken any bike to the tip.
Expensive bikes have expensive tyres. They are tubeless and not even puncture resistant so get punctured more often and require expensive sealant. If you hit a big thorn, it's a big mess to sort out whereas ordinary bikes requires 10 minutes and cost next to nothing to fix.

 

[Chainmale]

So after 10 years you send 10 bikes to landfill?
I bought a bike 10 years ago. Paid £550 if I remember well. Still looks like new.

Who sends old bikes to landfill? Worse case scenario the scrapman takes it and it gets recycled