Following on from my introduction to this forum I have questions

LesG

Pedelecer
Jun 23, 2023
67
12
Silly question of the day time...

The advice is to never leave your battery stored with no charge, but to have 30-60% in it, my question is, if it is flat when you arrive back from your ride and you charge it to, say 50%, is this classed as one of the up to charge cycles of the battery life?
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,982
8,565
61
West Sx RH
The main reason why we hear of ebike problems mainly with china hub bikes is because nearly all LBS have no idea how they work or how to rectify a issue, that said fault finding by a bike shop will run into silly money if they knew how. The proprietary bikes are so easy for them to fault find , all they have to do is plug it into pc and let that do the job for them then they can order or replace the part needed. Give them a DVM to fault find a basic hub bike and they are lost and out of their depth.

Most proprietary bikes simply go back to a dealer so they often have no need to come on niche forums for help, one expects once an issue is too costly to repair after the warrenty is over they either get sold off or put to the back of the garage /shed .

That is why forums like this exist because for the most part we can get down to finding the fault with the ownershelp.
Like so many niche forums and this is one of them also there are those overseas one well known in Germany and one in the USA, and like this one in the most part there is no one upmanship and this is better then that.
End of the day they all work and do the job needed .

End of the day mechanical wise it is down to how much the user is willing to maintain the bike , if they aren't going to maintain the bike then often the electrics will suffer the same non attention.
 
Last edited:

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,982
8,565
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West Sx RH
Silly question of the day time...

The advice is to never leave your battery stored with no charge, but to have 30-60% in it, my question is, if it is flat when you arrive back from your ride and you charge it to, say 50%, is this classed as one of the up to charge cycles of the battery life?
No it is part charge and 1/2 a charge, if you had to go out on an errand and then came back and charged it again and it took 75% to fully charge it then you will have 1 & 1/4 charges to the charge cycle rate.
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
7,019
3,245
Telford
Silly question of the day time...

The advice is to never leave your battery stored with no charge, but to have 30-60% in it, my question is, if it is flat when you arrive back from your ride and you charge it to, say 50%, is this classed as one of the up to charge cycles of the battery life?
There is no "one of the charge cycles". Batteries slowly wear out, depending on many factors, but mainly how much you use it. The 500 charge cycles often quoted in battery specs is just an estimate of how many full charges anyone would do during the life of the battery. It doesn't matter how many times you attach it to a charger.

Here's what's known to make a difference:
  1. Do not leave your battery in a fully-discharged state for any longer than you need to.
  2. If you're going to not use your bike for a long period of time, don't leave it fully-charged.
  3. Don't leave your battery on the charger for too long after you get the green light.
  4. Always charge the battery to full, except in case 2.
  5. Don't fast charge the battery.
  6. If you take your battery off the bike for charging, make sure it's switched off when putting it back on.
  7. Always switch the charger on before connecting it to the battery.
 

WheezyRider

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 20, 2020
1,690
938
Silly question of the day time...

The advice is to never leave your battery stored with no charge, but to have 30-60% in it, my question is, if it is flat when you arrive back from your ride and you charge it to, say 50%, is this classed as one of the up to charge cycles of the battery life?

It's not a silly question, there is a lot of discussion available on the forum etc about how to charge/store batteries and it often generates more heat than light :)

As your batteries are old, I wouldn't worry about it too much, just charge them as needed. But if you are going to leave the bike unused for a while, make sure you charge them first to at least 50%, but not 100%. If a cell is on it's own, a lower % can be used, but as this is in a pack with a BMS, which is slowly draining power, I would not want to store it with less than 50%.

You do not want to store it at 100% as if the temperature of the surroundings changes significantly, it can lead to the battery being in an over charged situation, which is bad for the electrode interfaces and this shortens battery life.
 

Az.

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 27, 2022
2,094
932
Plymouth
Always switch the charger on before connecting it to the battery.
Ok... is it still silly question time? My turn now:
What about when battery is charged? Switch charger off and disconnect battery or disconnect battery and then switch charger off?
 

Jodel

Pedelecer
Oct 9, 2020
173
140
Here's what's known to make a difference:
  1. Always switch the charger on before connecting it to the battery.
I must admit to being a bit confused by this piece of guidance - which does seem to be the consensus view from several very knowledgable members of this forum. Can I ask why this is case, as my manual from Woosh states exactly the opposite:

"Plug the charger into the socket on the right-side of the battery, then plug the other end into the mains socket and switch it on."


I have two 48v Woosh kits and have always followed their guidance regarding battery charging and thus far have not had any problems.

I'm not looking to start an argument here, just curious to know why there are differing viewpoints.
 

Cadence

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 23, 2023
279
208
Always switch the charger on before connecting it to the battery.
......and now my turn for a silly question!
I'd assumed the opposite. What difference does it make?
Until now I hadn't really looked closely at the "Chinglish" instructions supplied with my Yose battery and charger. Reading them now it says "Connect the connector pin of battery case firstly, and then the alternating current power supply".
 
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saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
7,019
3,245
Telford
Ok... is it still silly question time? My turn now:
What about when battery is charged? Switch charger off and disconnect battery or disconnect battery and then switch charger off?
The problem is only when you connect. There are capacitors in the charger that will charge from the battery if the charge socket on the battery is live and the charger is switched off. The massive current can damage the charging jack or it can damage the BMS.

It's the same with putting the battery on the bike. There are big capacitors in the controller that will take massive current as soon as the connection is made. That current will burn the battery contacts, eventually causing connection issues.

Not every battery and charger are the same. Some batteries that have charge sockets that can be switched off. Possibly some chargers don't have capacitors in them or they have some reverse current protection, but if you do what I said, you can't get any problems regardless of what type you have.
 
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WheezyRider

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 20, 2020
1,690
938
There is no "one of the charge cycles". Batteries slowly wear out, depending on many factors, but mainly how much you use it. The 500 charge cycles often quoted in battery specs is just an estimate of how many full charges anyone would do during the life of the battery. It doesn't matter how many times you attach it to a charger.
  • Don't leave your battery on the charger for too long after you get the green light.
  • Always charge the battery to full, except in case 2.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, the biggest cause of battery degradation is charging to the end point. The battery depends on a very thin passivating layer to protect the electrodes. Each time you charge a battery to "full" you damage this passivating layer and then the electrodes underneath are degraded. This can lead to a loss of capacity - I have seen figures of up to 0.5% per charging cycle. Also, chargers are manufactured with a significant variation in their output these days. I bought one just recently, the spec sheet said 42V +/- 0.3 V, so it could be as high as 42.3V or as low as 41.7 V. 42.3V is not good for the cells longevity, while 41.7V is probably not enough to initiate cell balancing by the BMS. This also invites the question, how long after the charging light goes from green to red should you leave the charger attached? When the colour changes, the charger has switched from constant current to constant voltage mode. The pack could be fully charged, or the BMS may be balancing the pack. If the cells are badly out of balance, this could take hours. You can't tell without opening up the pack and sticking in a voltmeter. But all the time the pack is at 4.2V/cell, more damage is being done to the electrode interface, especially as the best cells will be subjected to more than 4.2V/cell during balancing.

So personally, I only charge to 4.1V per cell. However, not everyone agrees with this approach as it reduces available capacity slightly and a battery BMS only starts balancing at around 4.18V/cell, so if charging to 4.1V/cell, there is the risk that the pack might go out of balance over time. In my experience, I have not found this a problem, packs with well matched cells at manufacture seem to stay in balance quite well over long periods of time and many cycles. Maybe if the BMS is bad and it switches on balancing mode when the battery is not being charged, it could drain some banks relative to others - that could be a problem, and has been reported by some, but I have not seen this myself.

Anyway, Les, I think your packs are old and quite small? Did you say 10Ah? So that being the case, I would just charge them up when you can after a trip and just not leave them connected overnight with the green light on the charger. You will need all the capacity you can get when winter comes as lithium batteries are not great in the cold. Once it gets below 10 deg C, you will start to see the performance drop off and by 0 deg C, it could be 30% less than what you get in summer.




 

Peter.Bridge

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
1,335
610
There is no "one of the charge cycles". Batteries slowly wear out, depending on many factors, but mainly how much you use it. The 500 charge cycles often quoted in battery specs is just an estimate of how many full charges anyone would do during the life of the battery. It doesn't matter how many times you attach it to a charger.
  • Don't leave your battery on the charger for too long after you get the green light.
  • Always charge the battery to full, except in case 2.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, the biggest cause of battery degradation is charging to the end point. The battery depends on a very thin passivating layer to protect the electrodes. Each time you charge a battery to "full" you damage this passivating layer and then the electrodes underneath are degraded. This can lead to a loss of capacity - I have seen figures of up to 0.5% per charging cycle. Also, chargers are manufactured with a significant variation in their output these days. I bought one just recently, the spec sheet said 42V +/- 0.3 V, so it could be as high as 42.3V or as low as 41.7 V. 42.3V is not good for the cells longevity, while 41.7V is probably not enough to initiate cell balancing by the BMS. This also invites the question, how long after the charging light goes from green to red should you leave the charger attached? When the colour changes, the charger has switched from constant current to constant voltage mode. The pack could be fully charged, or the BMS may be balancing the pack. If the cells are badly out of balance, this could take hours. You can't tell without opening up the pack and sticking in a voltmeter. But all the time the pack is at 4.2V/cell, more damage is being done to the electrode interface, especially as the best cells will be subjected to more than 4.2V/cell during balancing.

So personally, I only charge to 4.1V per cell. However, not everyone agrees with this approach as it reduces available capacity slightly and a battery BMS only starts balancing at around 4.18V/cell, so if charging to 4.1V/cell, there is the risk that the pack might go out of balance over time. In my experience, I have not found this a problem, packs with well matched cells at manufacture seem to stay in balance quite well over long periods of time and many cycles. Maybe if the BMS is bad and it switches on balancing mode when the battery is not being charged, it could drain some banks relative to others - that could be a problem, and has been reported by some, but I have not seen this myself.

Anyway, Les, I think your packs are old and quite small? Did you say 10Ah? So that being the case, I would just charge them up when you can after a trip and just not leave them connected overnight with the green light on the charger. You will need all the capacity you can get when winter comes as lithium batteries are not great in the cold. Once it gets below 10 deg C, you will start to see the performance drop off and by 0 deg C, it could be 30% less than what you get in summer.
That's interesting - one of my 36v chargers charges to 42.0v exactly and one to 41.3v (both new batteries and chargers - different conectors)
 

WheezyRider

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 20, 2020
1,690
938
That's interesting - one of my 36v chargers charges to 42.0v exactly and one to 41.3v (both new batteries and chargers - different conectors)
That's quite a variation. It could be explained by one battery pack having a reverse protection diode, so the charger for that has to supply more than 42V to compensate for the voltage drop of the diode. Can you detect a voltage on the input pins of the charge port of the battery when the charger is disconnected? If not, it is likely that there is a diode blocking reverse current flow.

The other aspect to consider is that most cheap multimeters are not very accurate on the 200V setting, so unless it is calibrated, you have to take the absolute reading with a pinch of salt, it could easily be +/- 0.5 V out.
 

AndyBike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2020
1,432
619
you ride on pavements
I sure do. Ride on the road too where I think it is safe. Must be the reason I've avoided accidents/close passes/etc

But thats by the by. I mean do you actually have a point to your post ?. Seems to far rremoved from the general topic of conversation one might think youre just posting as a troll.
 

lenny

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 3, 2023
2,817
844
I sure do. Ride on the road too where I think it is safe. Must be the reason I've avoided accidents/close passes/etc

But thats by the by. I mean do you actually have a point to your post ?. Seems to far rremoved from the general topic of conversation one might think youre just posting as a troll.
do i look like a troll? funny expensive bike and you ride on pavements like a granny lol
 

Peter.Bridge

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
1,335
610
That's quite a variation. It could be explained by one battery pack having a reverse protection diode, so the charger for that has to supply more than 42V to compensate for the voltage drop of the diode. Can you detect a voltage on the input pins of the charge port of the battery when the charger is disconnected? If not, it is likely that there is a diode blocking reverse current flow.

The other aspect to consider is that most cheap multimeters are not very accurate on the 200V setting, so unless it is calibrated, you have to take the absolute reading with a pinch of salt, it could easily be +/- 0.5 V out.
Yep, exactly the same multimeter, the Wisper 700 battery/ charger charges to exactly 42.0 v repeatably, the battery / charger (nominally 720Wh) that I got with my Woosh kit charges to 41.3v repeatably, will double check the voltage on the charger port.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,456
16,919
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
I have two 48v Woosh kits and have always followed their guidance regarding battery charging and thus far have not had any problems.

I'm not looking to start an argument here, just curious to know why there are differing viewpoints.
that is fine with the SANS chargers that we supply. You can plug the charger into the charging port in either on or off condition.

On some makes of chargers, you can see a spark when you plug in a off charger into the charging port of the battery.
This is because those chargers create an important load drawing power in the wrong direction from the battery toward the chargers.
If you have one of those, switch on the charger first before plugging into the battery to avoid drawing current in the wrong direction.
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,456
16,919
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Mate's just bought a Carrera crossfuse which looks not bad for the money, if you can overlook the poor quality Suntour fork.
Of course some people would rather not having suspension than a steel coil suspension weighing 3kgs but weight is not a problem for most e-bikers and the Suntour 63mm NEX E25 fork on your mate's bike offers really superb value for the money and requires practically no maintenance unless you leave the bike in the rain. It is fitted to zillions of e-bikes the world over for a reason.
 

AndyBike

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Nov 8, 2020
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AndyBike

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 8, 2020
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Of course some people would rather not having suspension than a steel coil suspension weighing 3kgs but weight is not a problem for most e-biker
Maybe once upon a time, but coil has its place.
Smashpot is the latest thing