Faulty eCarrera Crossfire

[NewtSoup]

So yeah, sorry for the short post earlier. I was on shift. 11 Deliveries in 4.5 hours on an average of 2.1 miles round trip per delivery. Today was a short shift. Tomorrow I'll be doing 11:30 to 3:30, 3 hour recharge break and then 7pm to 11pm/11:30pm depending on how the orders come in late evening. If I'm working hard then 1k miles a month is quite easy to accumulate. I used to do that on my road bike before it was stolen. I just had to have a month off with the flu. ( 2 weeks flu and then 2 weeks rest in case of secondary infection )

One hour into todays session the bike cut out while coasting down hill. It cut out a few more times while pedalling as I was travelling so I left it off for 3 minutes.. Once I'd done that it was fine for the next three and a half hours!

This is typical of how it behaves. Unpredictable with no discernible cause. I mean you guys have seen the video of it cutting out while stationary.

I'm not without hope though. I will go back to Halfords, Abbey Lane and let them know it's not fixed next week.

I feel a crusade coming on!... To the people saying "get a refund" - I may yet do that, right now I can't afford to be without the bike, but rest assured I am going to be VERY well known at both Leicester Halfords Stores. Once I can afford to replace it I will ask for a refund. But I need a new bike before I ask for the refund simply for continuity of work. I'm still going to make this ebike pay for itself before I make it unpay for itself

 

[redcup1999]

I feel a crusade coming on!... To the people saying "get a refund" - I may yet do that, right now I can't afford to be without the bike,

I can understand this.
What I found frustrating is that when my bike was sent off for repair (for > 3 weeks) there was no concept of a courtesy bike. This was my daily transport for commuting to work.

Fortunately I had alternative means of transport but I think that there is a place in the market for suppliers that recognise that an ebike may be used as a main means of transport and provide a service accordingly. (I ended up buying a 2nd hand ebike to use as a backup!).

 

[anotherkiwi]

I can understand this.
What I found frustrating is that when my bike was sent off for repair (for > 3 weeks) there was no concept of a courtesy bike. This was my daily transport for commuting to work.

Fortunately I had alternative means of transport but I think that there is a place in the market for suppliers that recognise that an ebike may be used as a main means of transport and provide a service accordingly. (I ended up buying a 2nd hand ebike to use as a backup!).

Early days! Those of us who only use bikes as primary transport are still eccentrics or worse, tree hugging hippy types you know! And I try to never say to people I don't have a mobile phone, they probably think I am one of those weirdos who go on about radiation and whatever... The idea that you don't need one is beyond most peoples imagination as it is for the car.

I can no longer afford to stay in the appartement I am in and hope to join the commuting ranks ASAP. Nothing spectacular, I can't see myself more than 3 km from work but we do have hills... Luckily all the hills go down to work so I will be able to ride in work clothes and then get my shirt dirty on the way home.

 

[oggie]

So yeah, sorry for the short post earlier. I was on shift. 11 Deliveries in 4.5 hours on an average of 2.1 miles round trip per delivery. Today was a short shift. Tomorrow I'll be doing 11:30 to 3:30, 3 hour recharge break and then 7pm to 11pm/11:30pm depending on how the orders come in late evening. If I'm working hard then 1k miles a month is quite easy to accumulate. I used to do that on my road bike before it was stolen. I just had to have a month off with the flu. ( 2 weeks flu and then 2 weeks rest in case of secondary infection )

One hour into todays session the bike cut out while coasting down hill. It cut out a few more times while pedalling as I was travelling so I left it off for 3 minutes.. Once I'd done that it was fine for the next three and a half hours!

This is typical of how it behaves. Unpredictable with no discernible cause. I mean you guys have seen the video of it cutting out while stationary.

I'm not without hope though. I will go back to Halfords, Abbey Lane and let them know it's not fixed next week.

I feel a crusade coming on!... To the people saying "get a refund" - I may yet do that, right now I can't afford to be without the bike, but rest assured I am going to be VERY well known at both Leicester Halfords Stores. Once I can afford to replace it I will ask for a refund. But I need a new bike before I ask for the refund simply for continuity of work. I'm still going to make this ebike pay for itself before I make it unpay for itself

I fixed the cut out problem by placing a tie wrap over the connector (photo) give it a shot you have nothing to lose.
The heel of my trainer used to catch the connector only slightly. Has'nt cut out for a few hundred miles now

 

[egroover]

NewtSoup, demand a new crossfire-e, the very newest stock they have (or get them to order one in)
I've had my new one for 4 weeks, ridden daily, 200+ miles, not a single cutout, up hills and down, in all weathers (mainly rain at the moment). If they do that and you still get problems with the replacement, walk away

 

[Gubbins]

I can understand this.
What I found frustrating is that when my bike was sent off for repair (for > 3 weeks) there was no concept of a courtesy bike. This was my daily transport for commuting to work.

Fortunately I had alternative means of transport but I think that there is a place in the market for suppliers that recognise that an ebike may be used as a main means of transport and provide a service accordingly. (I ended up buying a 2nd hand ebike to use as a backup!).

Intersting point.. My no longer trading e-bike store replaced the motor on my 3+ year old bosch classic. A few months later I asked about PX toward a new one, and he amswr was that we dont normally do trade ins but as we "know" this bike has a new motor we will px it and keep as a loan bike when others are in for repair and gave me £600 as a trade in.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I'm pretty sure that the cut-outs are due to an over-sensitive sensor somewhere, but there's probably other issues that are muddying the water.

Someone bought a Vulcan into my local ebike shop with error 22 on the display, which means battery over-temperature. The battery was cold. I took the display off, and I could see corrosion on one of the tiny pins. Also, there was corrosion on one of the battery terminals. After cleaning and greasing the terminals in both the battery and the display, everything was back to normal.

I need to make one point clear. When the display switches off by itself, it's because the battery supply to it has been interrupted. It's nothing to do with the motor, the motor connector or the controller. Either the BMS has switched off the battery or the connection to the battery was compromised. If the controller detects a fault, it sends an error code to the display. It doesn't shut it down. All this is the same on any electric bike.

 

[mike killay]

Sometimes I feel grateful for the simplicity of my TONARO.
It doesn't have any display, just an on/off switch.

 

[cyclebuddy]

I'm pretty sure that the cut-outs are due to an over-sensitive sensor somewhere, but there's probably other issues that are muddying the water.

Someone bought a Vulcan into my local ebike shop with error 22 on the display, which means battery over-temperature. The battery was cold. I took the display off, and I could see corrosion on one of the tiny pins. Also, there was corrosion on one of the battery terminals. After cleaning and greasing the terminals in both the battery and the display, everything was back to normal.

I need to make one point clear. When the display switches off by itself, it's because the battery supply to it has been interrupted. It's nothing to do with the motor, the motor connector or the controller. Either the BMS has switched off the battery or the connection to the battery was compromised. If the controller detects a fault, it sends an error code to the display. It doesn't shut it down. All this is the same on any electric bike.

Long speculation based on what evidence we appear to have thus far (I'll apologise now!)...

Even though the battery BMS is “smart” (in a Bosch/Yamaha handshaking way) - Phylion say tracking usage, state of health, low/over-temp, over/under-voltage, bad cell, time recording etc, none of those parameters are (according to the Suntour Rep) being communicated with the bike as (he said) those comms pins aren’t even connected. If the comms aren’t connected, the Suntour controller/display couldn’t possibly know if the battery did have an over-temp event (your error 22)! (Over-temp and over-charge error are reported to and shut-off when charging by the way hence the 5-pin connection with the charger).

So if the BMS isn’t “talking” with the bike, just supplying voltage in a “dumb” battery way, the only way for the BMS to shut down the battery is using its own internal sensors – Phylion say minimum cell voltage (2.8v/cell), internal over-temp (60c), or sustained high current (typically >680 watts, or peak 828/1800 watts). On a 250-watt rated hub-motor (even allowing for peak) something catastrophic would need to be happening to make that battery shut down on its’ own wouldn’t it (if that is what is happening)? And for those who have had Halfords change their battery (sometimes more than once), it didn’t seem to help at all. The battery/BMS (my local Halfords guys’ opinion) is not unique to Suntour – it really is just a standard Phylion stock item as used by many, many manufacturers. My own Phylion SF-06 battery certainly gets a good hammering with the MaxDrive, and has never “cut-out” – even when “heated/abused” (being a 115kg over-weight who rides up some very long, steep hills using maximum power and probably in the wrong gear!).

Yes, the battery may intermittently disconnect with vibration or pin corrosion/dirt etc – but several e-bikes use this same SF-06-style battery (Kudos Rapide, Wisper 929, Freego Martin, Greenway Cross – and tons of other manufacturers across Europe – although none I’ve found use the Suntour System), and Phylion also use this identical mechanical 6-flat-pin connection system on (some of) their rack-mount batteries (eg SF-03). I can’t find ONE complaint across the web affecting any other brand of e-bike that uses this identical pin connection system (I’m sure there may be a few bent or worn, corroded or dirty pins, but no consistent failures by bike model in the same way this Crossfire-e/Vulcan-e suffers).

So if this same Phylion battery/BMS and it's connection system works perfectly when used with other (predominantly Bafang) drive systems, this has to be something to do with the way Suntour have implemented their “unique” electronics for this HESC system: That really is down to the “odd” Infra-red cadence system and associated controller - and maybe there is an oversensitive sensor of some kind there?

Interesting that Egroover feels his new Crossfire-e has less power than his old one... maybe Suntour have newly de-rated the controller to draw less current (if an over-current event is perhaps what was tripping the BMS)?

It would have been interesting if Redcup1999 had swapped his two Phylion SF-06 Greenway Cross and Crossfire-e batteries over to see if the fault could be replicated – if only to see if the Greenway battery also cut-out when used with the Crossfire-e Suntour system – and vice versa?

It’s intriguing. But unless Suntour come clean in disclosing where the fault really lies (if they actually know – the Rep seemed to think it was the motor, which NewtSoup confirms it isn’t), maybe this mystery will never be solved.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

one of those parameters are (according to the Suntour Rep) being communicated with the bike as (he said) those comms pins aren’t even connected. If the comms aren’t connected, the Suntour controller/display couldn’t possibly know if the battery did have an over-temp event (your error 22)! (Over-temp and over-charge error are reported to and shut-off when charging by the way hence the 5-pin connection with the charger).

I don't know whether to believe the Suntour rep, though there's different versions of the Suntour system, so maybe something changed. The bike I worked on had error 22, and when I cleaned the terminals on the display and battery, it went away. Error 22 in one manual says battery over temperature, which it can only get by comms with the BMS. Remedy: allow it to cool down. In another manual, it says error code 22 is the torque sensor. Maybe it just fixed itself or had water in it that dried out.

http://www.srsuntour-cycling.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Downloads/Consumer/Bike/Owners manuals/2011/2011_ENG_SRS_SY_24V_OwnersManual.pdf

http://www.srsuntour-cycling.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Downloads/Consumer/E-Bike/Owners manuals/250W Rear Motor System/SRSUNTOUR-250W-rear-motor-bolt-axle-standard-manual-EN-03-03-2017.pdf

 

[cyclebuddy]

The bike I worked on had error 22, and when I cleaned the terminals on the display and battery, it went away. Error 22 in one manual says battery over temperature, which it can only get by comms with the BMS. Remedy: allow it to cool down.

When you press the battery button, the LEDs should indicate (certain) fault(s) instead of showing the SOC (battery state of charge) - if there is a battery fault. With this battery, an over-temperature event is shown by LED 5 lit solidly, and LED 1 flashing for 5 seconds (That seems to be shown in both the Phylion and Suntour manuals).

EDIT: The first manual seems to relate to an early 2011 version, whereas the second manual seems more relevant/current to the current system. Error 22 as you say relates to a Torque Sensor issue there. Other than overvoltage (which doesn't need comms from the BMS), all the other error codes relate only to Suntour specific controller, motor or sensor issues (a number of them to overheating events!). So perhaps the Suntour rep is right and comms aren't connected?

It does seem ridiculous that Suntour/Halfords don't seem to have gotten to the root cause of this problem yet, and are still selling these bikes.

 

[Benjahmin]

Didn't Newtsoup say his cut out going downhill? Certainly his video shows it going dead when at a standstill, so how could it be over current?
Maybe Suntour are using this forum to do their fault finding

My advice FWIW:
Build your own mate. At least you'll know what's where and what it does.

 

[cyclebuddy]

Didn't Newtsoup say his cut out going downhill? Certainly his video shows it going dead when at a standstill, so how could it be over current?

It would take a virtual short to trigger an overcurrent event to shut-down the battery as quickly as it has often been reported: Phylion say 50A for 96ms.

 

[Amoto65]

Before i took mine back for a refund it usually cut out going downhill and very rarely uphill or on the flat.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Anecdotally, the most cut-outs happen when the motor is at rest, which doesn't fit with the problem being due to over-current or over-temperature unless there's a delay between sensing the condition and reacting to it, which is always possible.

 

[egroover]

Just been out on the 6 month old mrs' crossfire-e (ladies version), and it's instantly noticeably quicker on acceleration and pulling power up hills.

Although it's more awkward to ride for me, my time up my commute hill (length 0.6 mile, average 7% gradient) was 2-3mph quicker than my average time on my new crossfire-e (daily for the last month), without any extra effort from me.

This was using the battery from my new bike to rule out that

I'm now convinced they have de-tuned the power output from the controller on these new bikes, in an effort to address the problem. Only time will tell if it makes any difference to the number of reports of cutouts in the future, or perhaps it's just my bike that's detuned. Not sure if Suntour or Halfords would admit it either way...

 

[Mantis55]

I had a Crossfire for 2 weeks there at New Year. Apart from a couple of cut outs, I couldn’t get the display to show more than 75% charge. They replaced battery, charger and controller. The Suntour Guy was coming from 9-12 like the other poster said, but didn’t appear. By that time I had my refund anyway. Shame, as it’s a great bike especially when reduced to £960.

 

[dazbobaby]

There is a simple and easy for the for the power cutting out.
A cable tie in the right place is all it needs
https://the-bionic-cyclist.co.uk/2017/10/15/the-dreaded-power-cut-fixed/

500 miles and no power cuts.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

There is a simple and easy for the for the power cutting out.
A cable tie in the right place is all it needs
https://the-bionic-cyclist.co.uk/2017/10/15/the-dreaded-power-cut-fixed/

500 miles and no power cuts.

That might have been the reason for your cut-outs, but not the reason for everyone else's. You can pull that connector right out, but the display won't go off. Most people complain that the display goes off, which means either the battery shut down or it became disconnected from the display.

If you look at the latest Crossfires, you'll see that the motor connector is completely sealed in a sleeve to prevent your fault. I guess you weren't the only one to have that fault then, so good info nevertheless, but not the complete solution - unfortunately.

 

[dazbobaby]

That might have been the reason for your cut-outs, but not the reason for everyone else's. You can pull that connector right out, but the display won't go off. Most people complain that the display goes off, which means either the battery shut down or it became disconnected from the display.

If you look at the latest Crossfires, you'll see that the motor connector is completely sealed in a sleeve to prevent your fault. I guess you weren't the only one to have that fault then, so good info nevertheless, but not the complete solution - unfortunately.

That's what happened with mine, the screen and power is cut completely. Previously I had to get off the bike, adjust the barrel connector and then turn the battery on. Then and only then could I ride again.

If there's another issue then I can't help, I can only determine that this cured my problem.