Faulty eCarrera Crossfire

[NewtSoup]

Good luck. Hopefully no cut outs for you.

You would think they would of done something like a recall or a redesign of the motor by now as this issue has been going on for over a year at least by my count.

If mine keeps doing it I will take it in. It’s due it’s free 6 week check soon anyway.

Absolutely, If it's that new take it in. Get them to replace the motor and see if it cures it.

 

[cyclebuddy]

There is a known fault with some of the motors which causes and over-current through the battery and THIS is what causes the battery to shut down. It's the over current protection cutting in. I was just unlucky to get it two bikes in a row.

For those interested in the battery itself - The battery has six pins. The outer pins are the positive and negative. The inner four pins do nothing. They are there but not connected inside the battery holder. However when the battery is placed in a battery testing jig they provide information such as the number of partial charges, energy used, number of deep cycles, age of the battery, suspect cells / banks and so forth.

That does make some sense... but I'm not totally convinced.

My e-bike uses the same Phylion battery... but with the "standard" BMS. From what I understand from Phylion, your Crossfire-e uses the "smart" BMS (perhaps that's what gives the usage cycles etc, whereas mine doesn't).

Nevertheless, my e-bike, which uses the 350w Bafang Centre/Crank drive, can be user-configured to give a much higher speed/output/drain from the Phylion battery than it's technically capable of (over-current)... which is far more demanding of current than the pre-set speed and current limited Crossfire-e, which cannot be user-adjusted (at least, no one yet has managed to work out how to do that).

When configured that way on my e-bike, the battery can get so hot it's practically on fire... but shut down?. No. It just gets to a point where it can't give any more than the cells are capable of.

It may be that Phylion's "smart" BMS does shut-down the battery in an over-current/over-heat situation, whereas the "standard" Phylion BMS just allows the battery to melt! But it seems the Suntour Motor must be seriously malfunctioning if the motor is drawing more current than the battery is capable of delivering, and the Controller is allowing that amount of current to pass.

I'm hopeful your issue is resolved (fixed) with your new motor... and about time too given the hundreds of malfunctioning Crossfire-e's that seem to be out there. But I'm remaining sceptical until I hear differently.

Presumably then your new "Suntour" motor is a redesigned one?

Extra Note:
There is another cause of the battery powering down - overheat - if you leave the battery charging overnight, then put it straight on your bike and ride off. Some batteries don't like that and go into thermal shutdown.

That can't be the case? The 5-pin Sans/Joycube charger used is a CC/CV design that reduces current progressively to the point that, if left on indefinitely, it's outputting nothing once the battery is fully charged/balanced (at best, 42-volts - more typically 41.5ish). The battery may get mildly warm in early stages of bulk charging, but it remains totally cool throughout the final stages of the charging curve. That surely can't present any difficulty to a 36-volt controller/motor?

Taking a battery off-charge and putting it straight onto a bike is something I (and many others) do as a matter of routine!

 

[NewtSoup]

Yeah I'm not convinced by the second cause either - I am doing that all the time too. Charge to Bike and the Phylion documentation says that overcharging isn't possible due to the smart bms. However the engineer seemed to think that might happen. So I repeated what I heard.

The motor thing though. I really hope the new motor fixes the problem.

 

[cyclebuddy]

I really hope the new motor fixes the problem.

I really hope so too. It would be nice to know where this Crossfire-e "cut-out" problem really does stem from, and that it CAN, at last, be fixed. Fingers crossed!

On a positive note... if the Suntour system really isn't using those battery centre pins after all, it means you could source spare batteries and chargers direct from other sources ((predominantly Europe) for far less than Halfords are charging!

My spare Samsung celled Phylion SF-06 battery cost just £150 (Halfords £400). And I recently bought a spare, genuine, 5-pin Phylion (made by Sans, branded Joycube) charger for my Phylion SF-06 batteries, postage paid, from Romania, for £28. Makes Halfords £100 (or even £65 when on offer) seem totally ridiculous!

 

[egroover]

Interesting reading, and I feel for you having to experience all of those issues especially as you are so reliant on the bike for your job. 2K miles in 3-4 mths, that's going some !
I have had a few cutout's on my old crossfire-e (purchased in Aug '06), however, not seen it happen in the same way (as your video). Mine would cut out, and then by just powering the battery and then turning on the display, would then cycle a few more yards, and then it would go off again. Sometimes, ONLY reinserting the battery would cure it, and on my way again, perhaps the problem not returning for a month or so, or 2-3 times in the same week, no pattern.

I have just replaced my crossfire-e with a brand new one, 3 weeks old (got a great deal, sold my old one). So far no cutouts at all in 200 miles, but early days. Perhaps mine is so new they have fixed the problem with the motor ? Hope so, but it does sound a bit random as to which motors are affected considering they have already swapped out you motor previously ?

Good luck, please keep us updated on how it goes, as I'll be running mine for the next couple or so years again, so will be interesting on how it pans out and how Halfords address the issue with existing bikes that have the problem (or though not as severe as yours).
Be interested too on how you get on doing the miles you do. I did 4k miles on my old one, no issues with wear and tear other than the usual consumables such as brake pads, cables etc

 

[egroover]

Found this info on the battery
https://system.na2.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=1742473&c=1117015&h=fa51fe3e917113a44022&_xt=.pdf&whence=

 

[egroover]

14.5ah version of the battery, https://www.ethosbikes.it/?product=batteria-phylion-sf-06s-14-5ah
Be great to get this in the UK

 

[Nealh]

Where is the controller situated ?
I can understand the issue in replacing the hub if the controller is inside, otherwise can't see hub replacement solving the issue if it isn't.
The controller controls amp delivery not the hub & like wise the battery can't deliver extra amps unless the controller asks for it, In which case any fault must lie between the controller and battery.

 

[cyclebuddy]

Where is the controller situated ?

It's in the battery dock (end cap), potted in resin.

The controller controls amp delivery not the hub & like wise the battery can't deliver extra amps unless the controller asks for it, In which case any fault must lie between the controller and battery.

My thoughts too. NewtSoup's discussion with the Suntour guy suggests that the 3 battery comms pins aren't even connected/being used, so that means only the 36-volt rails are - which is how most e-bike makers appear to use Phylion packs, and there are no reports of shut-downs/failures using these same Phylion SF-06 packs that I've ever found.

Egroover's find of the Phylion data sheet suggests overcurrent needs to exceed 23A for 2 seconds or 50A for 96ms to trigger battery shut-down (the 11.6Ah version is supposed to be Panasonic cells in 4P10S). I don't know what the Crossfire-e controller is rated for, but it isn't going to be anything like 23A! My money remains on a controller design/component fault/ingress failure.

We'll have to see if the fault continues with NewtSoups new motor?

 

[egroover]

I forgot to mention, my new Crossfire seems to have less power than my old one, particularly noticeable uphill or when in headwinds. I have to put more effort in to achieve the same speeds, especially up hills. I thought initially that perhaps the new one needs to loosen up or run in and trying to remember if my old one got quicker over time. Of course can only compare against my old one, so be interested when they swap out the op's motor if notice any drop in performance

I'm beginning to think that they mayhave 'detuned' the new one's to reduce or eliminate the cut out problems if that's even possible perhaps?

 

[Mikeb78]

I

I forgot to mention, my new Crossfire seems to have less power than my old one, particularly noticeable uphill or when in headwinds. I have to put more effort in to achieve the same speeds, especially up hills. I thought initially that perhaps the new one needs to loosen up or run in and trying to remember if my old one got quicker over time. Of course can only compare against my old one, so be interested when they swap out the op's motor if notice any drop in performance

I'm beginning to think that they mayhave 'detuned' the new one's to reduce or eliminate the cut out problems if that's even possible perhaps?

I bought mine December 23rd 2017 and still have the cut out issue the op described exactly.

So unless mine is an old model that the shop had in the storeroom for a long time then I don’t think they have detuned them.

 

[footpump]

i was told old models the lcd was non removable, the newer ones are this was easter 2017

 

[egroover]

i was told old models the lcd was non removable, the newer ones are this was easter 2017

Yep correct

 

[Nealh]

All the hub dose is covert any delivered electrical power to turn the motor axle, delivery of said power is supplied by the battery via the controller. To lower the power then the amps from the controller or battery voltage will need to be reduced.

 

[NewtSoup]

Hello again guys. Just wanted to let you know that the replacement motor did not fix the cut-out issue.

 

[Mikeb78]

Hello again guys. Just wanted to let you know that the replacement motor did not fix the cut-out issue.

Well that’s disappointing...

I might be on to something with mine.
I need another full charge to really see if it works or not.
But, I haven’t had a single cut out this week.

If it works I’ll post my findings next week for you guys to try too.

 

[Nealh]

Hello again guys. Just wanted to let you know that the replacement motor did not fix the cut-out issue.

Something I knew that wouldn't solve the issue, I am 100% sure it is an issue with the battery, a thermal overheat cut off otherwise either bms or cells. speaking of cells does anyone know what cells are being used.
The boffins at Suntour may have devised a system that is too clever for it's own good.

 

[redcup1999]

I got a refund on my Crossfire-e - suggest you all do too.

It's not fit for purpose and they don't know how to fix it.

IMHO this is not a battery, connector or motor issue - it is a combination of the controller / BMS used. In certain circumstances the controller requests too much current from the battery and it shuts down.

I could reproduce the issue with maybe 50% success by pedalling down a steep hill at 20+ mph and then continuing to pedal hard up the other side at 20+ mph. When the motor cuts in at 17mph (and I'm also supplying around 300w of effort with my legs) up hill, it cuts out within around 2 seconds. I would suggest that this is some kind of surge in the current requested from the battery.

This is not the only way to reproduce the problem, but was the most repeatable way for me.

 

[Nealh]

How ever you look at it the fault still lies with the battery not being able to cope with the load demanded of it and is the battery bms that shuts down mostly likely due to voltage sag, it then recovers allowing a reset.

 

[cyclebuddy]

In certain circumstances the controller requests too much current from the battery and it shuts down... it cuts out within around 2 seconds. I would suggest that this is some kind of surge in the current requested from the battery.

That makes sense to me. The question for me is why does this Suntour controller request >19A constant, 23A/2seconds surge for a poxy 250w motor?

No other e-bike using this same Phylion battery seems to have this problem.