Ezee Liv

[Flying Kiwi]

Of course it could, but I was referring to UK legal powers and class, and the Swizbee isn't that surely. I wasn't there and didn't look closely into the results, so wasn't aware that a Swizbee was allowed to enter.

Actually all sorts of contraptions entered, thats part of what made it so much fun. As for the regs concerning the legalities of using a Swizzbee, I imagine it would be quite easy to incorporate some form of resrictor to limit the power just as the Torque has (and I can only assume the Torque that won had it's restrictor in place). If I said the average speed over the course from the leading bunch was about 23 mph and given the law says power assistance must be completely removed beyond 15 mph then that must mean all winners did lots of work entirely under there own steam... either that or I got the average speed wrong

I realise the Presteigne area has some mighty hills, but I'd expect the climb to allow for the somewhat limited abilities of hub motor bikes in his respect and be set at a reasonable rate.

I fear this will be the case and it will end up being a 'hill climb lite' for the sake of the weaker bikes (and riders).

After all, for most of Britain, and indeed Europe, the majority only experience climbs up to about 1 in 8 (12.5%), and huge numbers don't know what a hill is.

Agreed although alot has to be said for knowing that if you needed to (perhaps while on a one off tour or even lost) you can climb even the steepest of hills without having to get off and push. That gives a rider confidence to go further afield and explore. As a fellow Twist with P5 gearbox owner , I'm sure you know what I mean flecc.

 

[flecc]

I fear this will be the case and it will end up being a 'hill climb lite' for the sake of the weaker bikes (and riders).

As a fellow Twist with P5 gearbox owner , I'm sure you know what I mean flecc.

Yes, I certainly do. Trouble is, it if was a maximum gradient competition, it's possible that only Twists and the like would finish! I suppose we could be wrong about the hill steepness, but I mailed the email address for queries about the event several days ago and requested the gradient, but I've had no response.
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[Flying Kiwi]

I mailed the email address for queries about the event several days ago and requested the gradient, but I've had no response.
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I actually think it will be more fun and more real for the organisers to keep the route and details like this under wraps. I'd hate to see it become a sort of electric bike formula 1 where entrants customise their bikes to suit the route. Much better if the route is sprung on contestants on the day (although some would say even thats enough time to perform mods). The last thing I'd want to see is one brand of bike having 2 differently customised entries, one for the flat part and one for the hill of x gradient part and then to try and claim that the one model was superior in both fields if they ended up winning both. In reality cyclists dont get off and modify their bikes when they get to a long steep hill so that shouldn't be the case here.

 

[flecc]

I actually think it will be more fun and more real for the organisers to keep the route and details like this under wraps. I'd hate to see it become a sort of electric bike formula 1 where entrants customise their bikes to suit the route.

That's a very good point.

In reality cyclists dont get off and modify their bikes when they get to a long steep hill

With some (many?) makes they might feel the need to though.
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[Tim]

In reality cyclists dont get off and modify their bikes when they get to a long steep hill so that shouldn't be the case here.

In reality, who could really be bothered to trek out to the Presteigne course with a theodolite and spirit level and then set up a bike to suit it?

 

[rsscott]

To give a better indication of hill-climbing ability, all the commercial bikes should be in standard trim, fully charged and the same rider rides each in turn without pedalling. Using various gradients we can then get an idea of how well each bike performs. Otherwise there are too many variables once you introduce pedalling, rider weights and fitness as well.

Still, we are a long way off these guys

YouTube - Car Going up the hill!!!!! AWESOME !!!!Amazing hillclimb

 

[electric.mike]

I used hills like that to practice on with my power bike, but it didn't test my 58 year old legs enough.

 

[Tim]

YouTube - Car Going up the hill!!!!! AWESOME !!!!Amazing hillclimb

That was exciting. He would have had a great opportunity to test his rollcage had he not cannily put left lock on before keeling over. There used to a Saturday morning show from Iceland with weird and wonderful vehicles doing the same thing up black, volcanic slopes. I don't recall them being that high though.

e.g. YouTube - Icelandic hillclimbing

and success (could do without the appalling music though) YouTube - Awesome ! Car Going up the hill!!!!!

 

[flecc]

There used to a Saturday morning show from Iceland with weird and wonderful vehicles doing the same thing up black, volcanic slopes.

They're a crazy lot in Iceland. My favourite visual trick of theirs is the way that they inflate a tyre on one of those weird vehicles after puncturing it, with an explosive charge! No time for pumps, only for for fun.
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[Flying Kiwi]

In reality, who could really be bothered to trek out to the Presteigne course with a theodolite and spirit level and then set up a bike to suit it?

Hopefully no-one but I can imagin some parties may feel under marketing pressure to make their products perform well in such an event with the media watching, not to mention all those potential buyers [insert salivating face icon here]

Knowing the gradients and lengths of the hills in advance, whether it be from direct experience with surveying equipment (unlikely) or via information gained from the planner or organising team somehow would give modifiers a head start.

Russ made the point that he'd like to see the bikes tested by the same rider without pedaling but with some, such as the Classic Twist (which were VERY well represented there in 2006), this wont be a possibility as the power assistance is related to the pedaling effort. With these sorts of bikes unless you do at least some pedalling, you're going nowhere (except for downhill of course).

 

[Quicken]

Could anyone explain in more detail the differences in performance between the Liv motor, and the one in the Sprint/Torq? Flecc, you wrote this:

Since the type of motor used in the Rider/Liv has a more "peaky" power characteristic than the Hall effect motors of the Sprint/Torq series, the actual results could be slightly below those in real world conditions, but not seriously so.

What does 'peaky' mean here? Is it that there is a narrower rev band over which the motor performs well? Any idea what the peak power on the Liv motor is?

Edit: Also, these are the ratings listed for Sprint 7-gear system:

Shimano Nexus Inter-7
(39, 46.2, 52, 62.4, 73.3, 83.3, 96)

Any idea what the equivalent numbers are for the inter-3 on the Liv?

Edit2: Answering my own question, I got these figures from the CTC website (CTC - the UK's national cyclists organisation)

244% 0.63 0.74 0.84 0.99 1.15 1.34 1.55 (Inter-7)
186% 0.73 1 1.36 (Inter-3)

Cheers,
Q

 

[flecc]

Unfortunately the 50cycles website doesn't give the sprocket used on the Nexus hubs, only the chainwheels. However, by back calculation the Sprint uses a 19 tooth sprocket, and if the Liv's Nexus 3 uses the same, the gear inches will be 46" - 63" - 86".

I emphasize that's based on that assumption, though it appears right when compared to eZee's past gearing practice with the Nexus Inter 3.

Regarding the Liv motor characteristic, it's a brush motor. Hall effect motors tend to have a fairly flat wide-topped power curve, in comparison with brush motors which have a steeper sided power "curve" with a fairly pronounced peak, more mountain in shape rather than round top hill. The peak is usually at quite a high power, often much higher than an equivalent Hall effect motor, but because it's only sustained over a a very narrow rev point, it's not as useful as it looks, since one cannot always arrange to be exactly at that motor revs point. I can't give figures for the Liv as I haven't seen them published, I've only been able to draw some average conclusions by back calculation from the Rider weight and performance.

However, to illustrate the point I can quote the standard Heinzmann 200 watt brush motor. It peaks at 600 watts, while the eZee Quando/Torq 250 watt Hall effect motor peaks lower at 576 watts. Despite that, the Heinzmann falls well short of the usable power and performance that the eZee motor can produce in practice, since the latter's slightly lower peak power is sustained over a wider rev range.

The brush and Hall effect motor characteristics mainly result from the more consistent power transfer of the controller on the latter over the rev range, than that of the brushes which lose efficiency in that respect at other than the optimum point.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

Hi flecc
do you think the ezee liv will be on the same terms as the powabyke for performance but 10 kilos less in weight would that sum it up i can understand that a bit better then to much tecno babble do you think ezee used a brushed motor because of costs i dont mean to be negative? I am not sure any bike that is 30 kilos will be easy to pedel without power on i thought the twist was just about right BIKE weights must come down to 20 kilos all bikes all less nigel.

 

[flecc]

It's a sort of yes/no answer Nigel. The Powabyke motor is a real "juice eater", made up for by it's very large battery. It's peak power is 700 watts, a seemingly massive figure. But it's power "curve" really is a spike, straight and straight down again, so still giving the legal average. You could treat a Powabyke as a light motorbike and forget the pedals virtually all the time.

I doubt that's true of the Liv, I'd expect it to perform more like an electric bike with the bike part more usable. I'm sure the Liv uses that brush motor because it was already there, a proven design used before, sitting on the shelf and available to keep costs down on a quality budget priced bike.
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[nigel]

nigel

hi flecc
i suppose if a bike company got most things right ie the perfect bike for a budget price then there wont be enough profit in it for a company to keep the product going hence giant twist lite.nigel

 

[flecc]

Probably true in part Nigel, but the perfect electric bike isn't possible, now or in the foreseeable future.

We want enough power to allow any capability of rider to tackle the steepest hills comfortably, but a long range as well!

We want the bike to have all the facilities and equipment as well as the above capabilities, but be as light as a normal bike and ride like one when not under power!

Ideally we'd like to have the motor free of the wheels and be driving through the gears while still being powerful. But that means whole new gearbox systems which will be much heavier!

You can see that those things constantly act against each other, so it's impossible even before cost enters into it.

The cost is just the final killer to any aspirations for technical perfection.

As if that wasn't enough, the legislators put in place further restrictions to design progress.

 

[nigel]

nigel

OH dear
not much hope then so at the moment would say the giant twistlite was and still is the best of the lot for the time being as a true all rounder

 

[flecc]

Yes, that sums it up, it's the nearest anyone has got. The basic Twist was slightly improved in one way for the USA by having the SRAM P5 hub, but could have had a further slight improvement.

I would have like to have seen a UK spec basic Twist with the SRAM P5 Cargo hub which is a bit stronger, coupled with a motor slightly more powerful at about 450 watts peak and 8/9 Ah cells in the same battery. That would have meant hardly any change in weight but a better climb speed performance and still with good range.

The hub and cell improvements I've done, but the motor one isn't possible with the same software for a privateer.
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[nigel]

Nigel

So the million dollar question is why has no other electric bike company tried to copy its design if most of us know it was the best that would be the way to go

 

[flecc]

The answer to that is twofold Nigel.

First there's the correct perception that so few potential customers know what constitutes a good electric bike, so the investment wouldn't pay off as well as it should.

Second, so much can be achieved by other methods. For example, the Quando is capable of virtually all my heavy hauling which the Twist normally does and has immense hill climbing ability due to sheer power. It only misses out on the normal bike characteristics.

Other much lighter bikes like the Powacycle Salisbury and some similar bikes from other makers go a long way towards the ordinary cycle character.

Therefore it's understandable that manufacturers might think, why bother?
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