Ezee Liv

Quicken

Pedelecer
Nov 14, 2006
56
3
Unfortunately the 50cycles website doesn't give the sprocket used on the Nexus hubs, only the chainwheels. However, by back calculation the Sprint uses a 19 tooth sprocket, and if the Liv's Nexus 3 uses the same, the gear inches will be 46" - 63" - 86".

I emphasize that's based on that assumption, though it appears right when compared to eZee's past gearing practice with the Nexus Inter 3.

Regarding the Liv motor characteristic, it's a brush motor. Hall effect motors tend to have a fairly flat wide-topped power curve, in comparison with brush motors which have a steeper sided power "curve" with a fairly pronounced peak, more mountain in shape rather than round top hill. The peak is usually at quite a high power, often much higher than an equivalent Hall effect motor, but because it's only sustained over a a very narrow rev point, it's not as useful as it looks, since one cannot always arrange to be exactly at that motor revs point. I can't give figures for the Liv as I haven't seen them published, I've only been able to draw some average conclusions by back calculation from the Rider weight and performance.

However, to illustrate the point I can quote the standard Heinzmann 200 watt brush motor. It peaks at 600 watts, while the eZee Quando/Torq 250 watt Hall effect motor peaks lower at 576 watts. Despite that, the Heinzmann falls well short of the usable power and performance that the eZee motor can produce in practice, since the latter's slightly lower peak power is sustained over a wider rev range.

The brush and Hall effect motor characteristics mainly result from the more consistent power transfer of the controller on the latter over the rev range, than that of the brushes which lose efficiency in that respect at other than the optimum point.
So the trick with a bike like the Liv, with just three gears and a (possibly) peaky motor output, will be getting the pedalling and gear combination right to get maximum performance out of the motor. Climbing the mountain, if you will. Sounds doable...

Cheers,
Q
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,262
30,649
That's it Quicken, the flexibility between ideal gear points should come from the rider's power. Perhaps not as bad as it might sound though, since with three gears there's more pedal time transmitted than when going through seven.
 

nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
467
0
Nigel

not more tecno babble gee wizz i am lost i give up with you guys:p ;) :) :D all that over 3 gears?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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But it's good fun isn't it Nigel?

And it's a way of still enjoying the bikes when it's bucketing down outside. :)
 

Quicken

Pedelecer
Nov 14, 2006
56
3
not more tecno babble gee wizz i am lost i give up with you guys:p ;) :) :D all that over 3 gears?
Well, breaking it down, here's my current understanding. Motors only give their maximum power output over a restricted range of RPM. The trick is to select the right gear (probably the top one on the flat, middle one on moderate hills, and bottom one on steep hills) and peddle enough to keep the motor in the maximum power band of RPM's (so it's giving you the most help). I imagine you can hear the rpm of the motor on the bike, and use that to optimise performance (a bit like listening to your car engine to decide when to change gear). The learning curve will be in determining what motor frequency means it is giving its max output. Then you can aim for that sound by changing pedaling effort and/or changing gear. I hope that makes sense.

Cheers,
Q
 

nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
467
0
Nigel

Hi flecc
would it be possibile to do a dummys guide for me?:D on how a electric bike works ie what does volts mean and watts and it all comes together to give 15mph PS how does the torq get that extra speed:D :) ;) nigel
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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30,649
Wow, that's a tall order Nigel!

In the following, don't let the numbers overwhelm, just look at each section in turn and take your time to understand the general relationship.

First the speeds and hill climbing

Most hub motors run through a hub turns per minute (revs) range from zero to about 300 turns each minute. That's roughly true of the same hub fitted in both the Quando and the Torq which run from 0 to about 280 turns of the hub each minute, equal to 16800 turns each hour.

Now in the Quando the hub is in a 20" wheel, which has a circumference around it of 62.8", so with each turn it travels 62.8" inches forward. Therefore, if we allow it to turn at it's maximum of about 16800 turns in one hour, it will have travelled enough inches (16800 x 62.8") to travel just over 16 miles in distance. So it's doing 16 mph.

In the Torq, the same motor is in a 28" wheel, which has a circumference of 87.9", so it travels that with each turn. That means that if we allow it to turn at it's maximum 16800 times each hour again, it will have travelled more inches (16800 x 87.9"), equal to just over 23 miles. So it's doing 23 mph although it's exactly the same motor.

Since both motors are the same and have the same power, the Torq in travelling further has had to divide the power between more metres travelled. That means that each metre had less power applied to it. That in turn means the Torq is not as good a hill climber. To explain that further, lets say we test the Quando to find the steepest hill it can climb, using all the power per metre that it has. Now if we try to climb that on the Torq, it won't manage it, since it has less power per metre than is necessary, it will have to ask it's rider to do a lot more to make up the difference to bring it to the Quando's power per metre.

So why can't we just ride the Torq at the same speed as the Quando, and therefore have the same power per metre? That brings us to:

Peak motor powers

As a motor starts turning, it starts to use the battery energy, but it turns very little into driving power, most is just draining away, wasted. As it's number of turns per minute rise, it starts to turn more of the energy into power, this showing as a rising line on a power graph. At about half it's possible turns per minute, it reaches a point where most of the energy turns into power, and this is it's point of maximum torque (pulling power). This is the point we need to use to best climb hills.

Since the Torq uses its turns per minute to run to about 23 mph if derestricted for off road use, at half the turns (revs) it will be doing about 12 mph, and that's where its best pulling power will be. On the Quando, half it's possible turns per minutes is equal to half 16 mph, so about 8 mph, so we climb at that.

If we climb at a lower speed on the Torq, say 8 mph, we won't have reached that maximum torque point so will only have about two thirds of the power, so we don't gain anything.

Power curves and Power band

We've seen above how the power curve rose towards maximum torque which we climb at, about half the speed a bike can do, and in doing that wasted less and less power. From then on as the speed increases when riding on the flat for example, the pulling power (torque) starts falling again, but this time without wasting any energy.

Eventually at about it's maximum speed it will be using very little energy and also wasting virtually none, so we call that the point of maximum efficiency. We call the area between the Maximum Torque and the Maximum Efficiency the Power Band, since that's the best area of turns per minute to use.

Gears

As above, it's best to stay within the power band, but we also need to ride at very slow speeds. We also want to climb hills that are steeper than the bikes speed that the maximum torque point can allow. The way to best get round that is to have some way of shifting the maximum torque and efficiency points to speeds that we need to ride at to do those extra things.

That can be achieved by having the motor drive through gears that can be changed, so that a number of turns can result in less road speed or more, and that's the way the old Twist does it. By changing down so that the maximum pulling power appears at a lower speed, so less distance travelled over a minute, that power is spread over less metres travelled, so there's more power for each metre. That makes it possible to climb a steeper hill.

By changing up the gear to put the point of maximum efficiency at a higher speed, the bikes speed can be increased up to the point where wind and rolling resistance overcomes the available power.

Volts and Watts

These are often compared to mains water supply in teaching the subject Nigel. Purists need not correct!!!

Imagine you hold your thumb over the end of a tap and turn the water on. You can feel the pressure but it's not doing anything. Electrically that's what Volts are, a potential for something.

Now have your thumb off the tap and the water flows at a certain rate of gallons per minute. Electrically that's current in Amps, an amount flowing through.

If there's a lot flowing through at very high pressure, that's lots of power. Electrically that's watts, the current flow multiplied in power by the pressure, therefore Amps x Volts = Watts.

If there's less of either the volts (pressure) or the amps (current flow) the power will be reduced. That's how we control our motors.

Hope this has been of some help Nigel, but I think you'll need to print it out to get the best out of it with a couple of re-reads.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Nigel

Let me know if that's ok so far, and then I'll add how that electrical side comes together to make the motors work.
 

nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
467
0
Nigel

Thats great flecc
i will print it of as you said and take it to work tonight and see if that grey matter will soak some of the imformation you have supplied many thanks nigel:) :D
 

Tim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2006
770
78
London
eZee Livs have arrived

We took delivery of the first eZee Livs this morning and first impression is that it's a great move by eZee to introduce a bike that performs so well at this price. Quiet and smooth power, good riding position, a neat little nexus 3-speed hub and twistgrip gear shifter - it makes for a superb electric bike package. I went for a quick test ride and ended up doing a couple of circuits of Loughborough town centre.

The first person to ride one in the UK was a customer who turned up here at the warehouse and decided it was the bike for him and bought one on the spot.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,262
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Great news Tim, we've waited a long time for a genuinely powerful quality bike in this price bracket, so it's more than welcome in filling that gap.
.
 

ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
Volts - Amps - Watts

Hi Flecc:
If there's a lot flowing through at very high pressure, that's lots of power. Electrically that's watts, the current flow multiplied in power by the pressure, therefore Amps x Volts = Watts.

Thanks for the explanation - that must have taken a while to type and edit - why not publish it on this Forum as a permanent item so that subscribers can pick it up from a conspicuous position "on arrival".

Now comes a burning question:
Relating this to the Torq (I'm selfish like that);)
What is the correlation between the Torq's Motor having a Nominal output of 200 watts (although I have been convinced by postings on the Forum that it is a 'political' publication and the real output is 250 watts nominal and much more maximum) and
Rated Current 5 Amps, and
Rated Voltage 36 Volts.
to the attainable mileage on one charge ? (No discounts for age of the battery/ambient temperature/Rider assistance.
The battery is quoted as being 10Ah.

Amps x volts = watts therefore: 5 x 36 = 180 watts (Have Ezee got a different formula?)

Taking up the battery's specification: What correlation does 10Ah have to these basics? will it produce that 5 Amps for 2 hours? I expect that as the battery becomes drained the voltage falls off and with it the available watts.
If 5 Amps equals 15 mph (it probably does not because consumption on the dead flat and none of those many other variables impacting on my feeble maths, the motor is not working at maximum power - I believe 50 to 100 watts was mooted in the recent past on this Forum), then the 30 miles on one battery that I achieved is somewhere near the truth (reality).
If this is correct, we all now know that my pedalling efforts are negligible (but then I knew that all along - I only put in measurable effort when I get to a hill - 4% or more).

It's a slow business and a steep learning curve. In a fit of a quest for more knowledge I bought the book "Electric Bicycles by Morchin and Oman". I am stuck on page 23.
:confused:

Peter
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,262
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Sadly that's a very poor book overall Peter, and we still need a good one on the subject. You can console yourself with the thought that by being stuck at page 23, you're not missing much!

That 5 amps nominal is just an approximated average to fit legal requirements, the peak current is 16 amps, hence the 576 watts theoretical maximum power of the Torq and Quando motor with a 36 volt supply. In practice at an estimate of 80% efficiency, a very good figure, the net wheel power is around 460 watts. Of course these assume constant voltage as you've inferred. In practice the eZee Li-ion battery idles fully charged at around 42 volts, the NiMh at around 41 volts. Connect the motor load and the voltage drops, fluctuating according to the motor's rotational speed and loading. Therefore any attempt at definitive figures has little point, since with a Li-ion, the actual gross wattage can be anything from 512 watts to 672 watts

From this arises the following conversation:

Marketing department: "What's the power of our motor?"

Technical department: "What would you like it to be?"

:D

In rough terms, a 10 Ah battery will deliver 5 Amps for 2 hours, or 20 Amps for a half hour, but in practice, higher discharge levels bring battery internal resistances into the equation, lessening the total available current. This happens on our bike batteries, hence the range inconsistencies in high load (high drain) conditions.
.
 
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ITSPETEINIT

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2006
492
0
Mere, Wilts
Statistics or them other things?

From this arises the following conversation:

Marketing department: "What's the power of our motor?"

Technical department: "What would you like it to be?"

:D
.
Here's another coversation:
"Hello, Hello? Is that the Chinese Trading Standards Office?"
:D
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,262
30,649
Here's another coversation:
"Hello, Hello? Is that the Chinese Trading Standards Office?"
:D
Is that connected with this quote from the internet:-

" - - - Foreign Law Enforcement Community, Beijing (better known as FLECC)"

True!
.
 

coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
Tim said:
We took delivery of the first eZee Livs this morning... I went for a quick test ride and ended up doing a couple of circuits of Loughborough town centre.
Hmmmm... I guess thats why I didn't see you at the warehouse today ;)

Tim said:
The first person to ride one in the UK was a customer who turned up here at the warehouse and decided it was the bike for him and bought one on the spot.
And I thought I'd got the honour of being the first! Damn! I must have been in the first few at least :rolleyes: - I rode one at 12.45ish (to the Deli, to get some grub :p)

It was great timing to turn up there today, I had a great time trying out the bikes and it was so worth it to do so: everyone was right, you have to try before you buy :p.

The Ezee Liv was my first experience of ebikes, and it was very smooth & comfortable indeed, just as Tim described. Not the most suitable bike for me, as it turned out, but ideal for some others I'm sure: you really must try them first if at all possible, especially if your needs are specific, and if you want to be sure of the right one for you: I tried several different ones today, and they all have different characteristics, but I did find the right one for me by doing so :)
 

Mike Robinson

Pedelecer
Feb 28, 2007
46
2
The Ezee Liv was my first experience of ebikes, and it was very smooth & comfortable indeed, just as Tim described. Not the most suitable bike for me, as it turned out, but ideal for some others I'm sure: you really must try them first if at all possible, especially if your needs are specific, and if you want to be sure of the right one for you: I tried several different ones today, and they all have different characteristics, but I did find the right one for me by doing so :)
I'm waiting for my Liv to be delivered - could you say why the Liv wasn't suitable for you?

Mike
 

coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
Yes Mike, though I did say not the most suitable, not "wasn't suitable" - big difference :D

I tried the Liv & found it to be everything Tim says: a very accurate descrition, and though I haven't tried other ebikes in that price bracket I'm sure it compares very favourably indeed especially for power.

But ezees ebikes, like all bikes, are (I think its fair to say) not all designed for the same style of use, and trying the other bikes I found one which better suited my style of riding as I said (I guess I'm more of an urban, racing bike type, you'd say :D): this will always be an individual aspect of bikes, so I really shouldn't say bike X is for person type Y or whatever, all I can do is find what works for me and its why I'd encourage (as so many here do) anyone to try out the bikes where possible as I said, aswell as having a clear picture of how you want to use the bike - that will greatly assist one's choice :).

I could easily have bought a Liv, but getting something more suited to my intended usage seemed worthwhile.

But you'd certainly be hard pushed to find a better quality bike than the Liv for the price! I hope that helps?

Stuart.
 
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nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
467
0
Nigel

HI coops
did you find it any less powerfull then the other bikes ie sprint quando and rest also how did the weight feel did you try it without power on:D NIGEL.
 

coops

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 18, 2007
1,225
1
Manchester U.K.
Hi Nigel

The power level was very good compared to others - I think the motor used has been discussed here (brushed, reliable) & is very well suited to the bike - very smooth. I didn't try the sprint & quando as I got distracted by other bikes :D.

Weight was also very good - though I think when I tried it it had lithium battery in. The whole bike seems very refined & has a feeling of "integrity": all the parts work together very well to create a "smooth, seamless" experience. The extras - rear carrier & lights in particular - are a very nice touch and give extra value to what is a complete package.

Certainly, while I was there trying out different bikes, I saw one man come in, try out the Liv, buy it & ride away on the bike in very short time, and they are selling very well from what i hear.

I think I did try pedalling without power on - its good, but clearly not quite as easy as a non-electric without the hub motor, also freewheel speed downhill is a little slower too, but these are unfair comparisons since it is an electric hub motor bike & thats its primary use: I'd say that, given the long range, it works well in that regard and accelerates quite quickly but sedately to 15mph :D. The 3-speed gearing was very easy to use and, though widely-spaced, again worked very well with the electric assist.

If you're asking about pedalability beyond 15mph, then I'd say its good, but the Torq (for instance) has lower pedalling resistance if you want to go faster.

I hope thats a fair reflection of my experience :).

Stuart.
 
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