Ezee Liv

[nigel]

Hi everyone
with the new model coming out in march would anybody have thoughts on this good priced bike i suspect we all seen the specs and it is very early days? what will this ezee bike be like will it be a lighter powabkye will it be a good on hills any thoughts welcome.nigel.southampton.

 

[Quicken]

I am wondering about the front forks. On the 50cycles website, it says:

"Suspension Zoom front fork with alloy crown"

Does anyone have any experience with these Zoom forks? Are they the same ones as found on the Sprint? I haven't read great things doing a quick google. I suppose it would be easy enough to replace them with a decent set of solid forks?

Also, it looks in the picture as if the back light might be attached to the rack. Is that right?

Cheers,
Q

 

[Flying Kiwi]

will it be a good on hills any thoughts

My thoughts are that with the demise of the original Giant Twist, whats really needed is another bike with the motor power going through the gear train to replace it, rather than further proliferation in the cheap to design hub motor market. Don't these manufacturers realise that there's a big gap in the market waiting to be filled with a product that offers the excellent hill climbing ability and flexibility for maximum efficiency also on the flat that hub motors simply cant provide.

It seems to me that at the moment marketing hype and compromise is triumphing over excellent design in the "reasonably priced" electric bike market. The fundamental design concept of using a fixed gear hub motor in conjunction with multiple gears for the pedal drive train is flawed.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

As
flying kiwi says its strange that one of the better bike companys has not used the drive through method maybe its more expensive to produce or more difficult to design i am not sure but as you said it is the best on hills.

 

[flecc]

The Liv uses the motor that was in the back wheel of the eZee Rider model, but in the front wheel this time. The Rider was the Sprint in a lower cost form, with a heavy sealed lead acid battery and this lower powered (than Sprint) brush motor and cost £650.

It's creditable that it's down by £100 and at the same time gained the very good 36 volt eZee NiMh battery as used in their more expensive models, so it's great value for money. However, it isn't a Sprint and won't perform quite as well as that bike does with it's excellent brushless Hall effect motor.

A to B reported the Rider as beginning to struggle a little below 10 mph, equating to hills steeper than 10%, but that was with the bike weighing 10 kilos more, mainly due to the SLA battery, so the Liv should be good for 12% with an average rider, as good as most.

In it's price bracket it has to be one of the best buys around. There's a lot of quality there, and the higher performance of a 36 volt system is an unusual benefit at that price.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

posted by quicken
Does anyone have any experience with these Zoom forks? Are they the same ones as found on the Sprint? I haven't read great things doing a quick google. I suppose it would be easy enough to replace them with a decent set of solid forks
Thanx for imformation flecc would their be any concerns with front forks on the ezee Liv that you know of nigel.

 

[Flying Kiwi]

maybe its more expensive to produce or more difficult to design i am not sure but as you said it is the best on hills.

Ten out of ten on both accounts Regarding the price though, it needent be much more expensive because the same bits are still there in the same quantities (eg battery, motor and control circuitry/wiring), they're just put in different places, in different housings and with more thought thats all. I think the main reason isn't price (as at least one manufacturer would have us believe) but that it's much more involved to design an electric bike where the motor power goes through the geartrain, much easier to quickly come up with a hub motor setup. This can more easily be changed for future models and upgrades to spark additional sales.

Irrespective of whether any hub motor powered bike offers good value for its individual components, I cant see why that same bike cant be made to offer even better value, efficiency and flexibility for purpose by putting it's motor in the right place coupled to the drivetrain gears. Friction drive motor power has all but died out because customers realised the pitfalls with this system. I hope customers can also see the limitations with hub motor drives and act accordingly.

It's going to take pressure from discerning buyers to force some manufacturers to offer anything other than what they think will most easily make them the quickest buck and not neccessarily the most satisfied long term customers. I would have thought Panasonic would be keen to supply ready-made crank input motor units to bike manufacturers now they're no longer supplying the largest bike maker in the world, Giant, with units for the original Twist. Perhaps someone with electric bike manufacturing contacts can set me straight if they think I'm wrong

 

[Flying Kiwi]

I am wondering about the front forks.

Unless you get excellent quality suspension forks, cheaper units tend to just add weight to the bike with little usable gain. I know on my Twist Comfort the usable travel on the front forks is only about 40 mm... not exactly great for soaking up the bumps that count. I have no experience with the forks on that Liv though. In the budget price range for bikes it's often suggested that bikes don't have suspension forks at all, so it does make me wonder about marketing priorities when manufacturers include them on budget models.

 

[flecc]

The Sprint also uses Zoom forks, but I don't know whether they are the same model as on the Liv, they probably are since the Rider used the same. In none of the tests of the Sprint or in the Rider test that I've read have the forks come in for any specific criticism. I have seen critical comment of some Zoom forks on other bikes, but when I've researched this, it seems virtually all makes of low to medium priced suspension forks are harshly judged at times.

The criticism is a mixed bag for all manufacturers it seems, with the same web pages often displaying both criticism and praise in equal measure. I think it's likely to be as much down to how individuals like having suspension forks at all on bikes. I don't, simply because they haven't translated well from motorbikes for weight reasons. Within a reasonable weight they rarely have the same travel, damping or rebound control that they should have. With opinions like that, I wouldn't be likely to do anything other than criticise!

So if you don't mind suspension forks, go with the fact that the Sprint/Rider forks haven't been criticised in road tests in the way some others have, so the Liv forks are likely to be as good as any.

 

[Quicken]

A to B reported the Rider as beginning to struggle a little below 10 mph, equating to hills steeper than 10%, but that was with the bike weighing 10 kilos more, mainly due to the SLA battery, so the Liv should be good for 12% with an average rider, as good as most.

In it's price bracket it has to be one of the best buys around. There's a lot of quality there, and the higher performance of a 36 volt system is an unusual benefit at that price.

Here's the thing about hill climbing performance - it's the total weight of bike plus rider plus any additional load that matters, and I am quite light (about 59kg). The Liv weighs 29.2 kg, and let's say I am carrying/wearing an additional 6.8kg for my commute. So, the total load for the motor to handle is 95 kg (certainly less than 100 kg). Should I expect good 1 in 8 performance? 1 in 7?

I currently ride an old Raleigh "pro race" road bike with a Reynolds 501 (double butted I think) frame, and shimano SIS 12 gear system. It's a full sized men's bike (actually a bit large for me). Does anyone have any idea how much this would weigh for comparison? I never need to drop into the lowest gears for any of the hills on my commute route, but I do tend to stand up and stamp on the pedals to go up them a bit faster. I haven't been out and measured the grades of these hills yet, but none of them are too bad compared to some I have ridden (I used to ride a lot in the lakes, and have yet to find a road hill that would make me get off and walk).

Q

 

[flecc]

Hello Quicken

By calculation based on some knowledge of the Rider motor, no problem at all for your cycling abilities.

On motor power alone, it calculates as capable of 1 in 10.3.

With your power added based on the NASA curve for "healthy" men, yielding usable muscle power of 320 watts sustainable for 5 minutes, it calculates as capable of 1 in 5.4 after allowing 100 watts wastage for rolling resistance, friction, air drag etc.

For a less fit 75 kilo rider, the same calculation yields a maximum capability of 1 in 7.

Since the type of motor used in the Rider/Liv has a more "peaky" power characteristic than the Hall effect motors of the Sprint/Torq series, the actual results could be slightly below those in real world conditions, but not seriously so.

Your riding capabilities could well be in excess of that NASA prediction. I'd guess your Raleigh weighs about 16 kilos, but that is a guess based on a variety of bikes.
.

 

[flecc]

Adding to the above, your speed when climbing a 1 in 8 calculates as about 12.3 mph, and on a 1 in 7, about 10.7 mph. The same comment on the "peaky" characteristic applies slightly more here.

The fact that it only has a restricted range of a three speed hub also means the optimum won't be quite as achievable when the cycling gear doesn't match the circumstance and rider preference.
.

 

[Quicken]

Thanks Flecc. Here's another question - what components do you think make the Liv 3 - 4 kg heavier than the Torq (discounting battery differences)? The forks? The kick stand? The chainguard? The motor itself? The wheels? All of the above? Something else?

Just curious really. I don't think 3-4 kg is a big deal when you're talking about full loads closer to 100 kg, but I'd consider changing parts like the forks for lighter alternatives.

Cheers,
Q

 

[flecc]

My guess is forks, motor and frame combined

The fork additional weight is obvious as you've implied. The Liv motor is larger diameter than the Torq's and by their nature these hubs are content full, so there's probably more material. The frame on the Torq is commensurate with that bike's price so could well contain more exotic material and possibly have thinner wall construction enabled by superior material.

As you say, 3/4 kilos won't make much difference and the Torq's high geared motor means that at anything below below 12 mph it's below it's power band, so is disadvantaged on a hill where that cannot be maintained, in comparison with a bike that has a normally geared motor. That could make the extra weight "disappear" on the steepest hills. Of course on lesser hills where the Torq can run at 12 mph or more, which for you would probably be 1 in 8 or less, it will be far the better performer, since it will then be in it's own territory, which is unique to that model in the electric biking sphere. For example, I'd be disappointed if with a very fit rider it didn't win the Presteigne hill climb event which I think will likely be at or less than 1 in 8.
.

 

[halfmedley]

Interesting point you make Mr Flecc that they'd have to put a "very fit" rider on the Torq for it to win the hill climb event at Presteigne. Defeats the object of having electric assistance to my mind, ie to help those of us lesser mortals. Hmm, if I could get Miguel Indurain to ride my Mistral I reckon he'd would beat the Torq rather easily and make a mockery of the respective hill-climbing abilities of both bikes. Is the hill-climbing event a measure of the bike or the rider?

 

[flecc]

Hi Halfmedley

It's best to read that "very fit" comment in the context of what I said about the Torq being "in it's own territory", that is, in a unique class of it's own. Unlike almost any other electric bike, the Torq has been designed as a high performance sporting bike with both rider and motor power taken into account in the total design. It's most definitely not a bike where pedalling is just an option, it's essential anywhere but the absolute flat.

Ordinary electric bikes are often designed with a fair degree of optionality where pedalling is concerned, nothing to do with the European pedelec requirements.

It follows that the Torq, being anything but ordinary, deserves a reasonably fit rider for the best results, as that's what it's designed for. Since it can be assumed that all the serious competitors at Presteigne will be very fit, my "very" in that comment was just comparative out of fairness.

Another way of looking at this is that ordinary electric bikes are designed to help those who might otherwise struggle to cope with their road conditions, covering even the least capable. That definitely isn't the reason for the Torq's existence, since part of it's steep hill climbing performance has been sacrificed in the interests of speed, quite the opposite of what the least able would want. That sacrificed part is intended by design to be made up by the rider, hence some need for fitness.
.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

HI guys
i think the ezee liv is the best value around a lot off quality for the price and delivered to door i suppose we all would like a bit more for the perfect bike ie less weight maybe the the sprint motor would be good but still there has to be a profit i think its still great value and a winner NIGEL.

 

[flecc]

Is the hill-climbing event a measure of the bike or the rider?

In a P.S. to my above reply, this last sentence of yours also makes an interesting point. The "driver" versus vehicle aspect is always a matter of contention in any motorised sport. Where high vehicle powers are concerned, it's easy to get situations where the best driver on the track doesn't win, if a lesser driver has the best car. I think this has been true for many drivers' Grand prix victories and championships, simply because at different times they were often in cars which were so far superior to others on the track that any other driver was seriously compromised. That's also been true in Moto GP.

Now here's the bit that might upset some! Since electric bike's power is so much smaller in relation to riders' ability, a much larger part of any speed or hill climbing event victory will be due to the rider than is true in other motorised sports.

However, the main requirement for competitive victory is the avoidance of design compromise, and the Torq is perhaps the least compromising machine we can buy, so it starts with the right pedigree for sporting success.
.

 

[Flying Kiwi]

For example, I'd be disappointed if with a very fit rider it didn't win the Presteigne hill climb event which I think will likely be at or less than 1 in 8.
.

Only 1 in 8? Although I've not checked the gradient of the hills from Knighton through to Presteign, there are some very long and steep ones, I hope they chose the longet and steepest to really sort the sheep from the (mountain) goats. I'd be surprised if a much more exotic bike such as a Swizbee with a fit rider (and highly advanced pedal crank gears) didn't win the hill climb. It was certainly a very close second on the whole relatively flat course last time, with no hill climb run. Such a bike would certainly have the capacity to win on the flat as well.

 

[flecc]

Of course it could, but I was referring to UK legal powers and class, and the Swizbee isn't that surely. I wasn't there and didn't look closely into the results, so wasn't aware that a Swizbee was allowed to enter. As said above, as much will depend on the respective riders as with the bikes.

I realise the Presteigne area has some mighty hills, but I'd expect the climb to allow for the somewhat limited abilities of hub motor bikes in his respect and be set at a reasonable rate. After all, for most of Britain, and indeed Europe, the majority only experience climbs up to about 1 in 8 (12.5%), and huge numbers don't know what a hill is. I didn't until I was nearly 10 and we moved out of the old county of Middlesex where "the hill" in those days was the hump back bridge on the Hounslow-Staines road. That's why Heathrow was built there.

By majority, I'm referring to the population density map of course, not the geographic map since the great majority live in the less hilly and flat areas. Despite the film music, the hills are far from being alive!
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