Electric Mountain Bikes: No one will buy one?!..

[Artstu]

ooh you almost got me to fill in the blanks then. ..

 

[dinger19]

I guess Jresa's made a fool out of me then.

That's what you get for being a trusting soul

Me as well.

 

[Gubbins]

I am with tilson. .. it all seemed a bit obvious.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

On a side note, KTM mentioned that the dongles would be damaging to the motors.
Can someone explain to me why this would be possible? A motor capable of 350w but downgraded to meet the uk and European standards should be able to work fine with an upgrade that will just allow this release of its potential.

Upgrading a cars motor above and beyond its capabilities will damage the engine, but as far as I have read about these dongles all they do is allow assistance above the 25km/h limit by reducing the amount of speed the motor is seeing.

Am I right to understand that someone requesting assistance from the motor above say 45km/h if they have the strength could damage the motor? Do these bikes come with a manual as to what the motor can actually sustain speed wise? Say I'm pedalling like a maniac downhill with no more assistance above the 25km but I'm doing 60 or 70, is that going to damage the motor?

It would be interesting to hear what the dealers know about these motors.

I do apologise if this is completely off topic. I thought I'd ask here since the matter dongle is so heated up.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

On a side note, KTM mentioned that the dongles would be damaging to the motors.
Can someone explain to me why this would be possible? A motor capable of 350w but downgraded to meet the uk and European standards should be able to work fine with an upgrade that will just allow this release of its potential.

Upgrading a cars motor above and beyond its capabilities will damage the engine, but as far as I have read about these dongles all they do is allow assistance above the 25km/h limit by reducing the amount of speed the motor is seeing.

Am I right to understand that someone requesting assistance from the motor above say 45km/h if they have the strength could damage the motor? Do these bikes come with a manual as to what the motor can actually sustain speed wise? Say I'm pedalling like a maniac downhill with no more assistance above the 25km but I'm doing 60 or 70, is that going to damage the motor?

It would be interesting to hear what the dealers know about these motors.

I do apologise if this is completely off topic. I thought I'd ask here since the matter dongle is so heated up.

you've misunderstood me I think, and also slightly misunderstood the Bosch motors, the 250w and 350w are identical. What I said was that the dongle will put more wear on the motor, and other components on the bike than they were potentially designed to deal with. This is because it removes the cuts out the speed, so for the same amount of miles the motor will be being used more, because it won't cut out where it should. The power isn't increased at all.

But this isn't really relevant, I suspect you'd have to ask Bosch why, and if its actually to do with engineering. Or if its simply... if you want to by a sPedelec... buy one thats built as such. Don't buy a cheaper 250w bike and then turn it into a 350w and expect to get their support - especially as chances are you'll be using it illegally.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

Are there countries these motors sold where there is no such limit?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

In Germany... there is a specific class of moped / bicycle for the sPedelecs, which have the 350w motor, but have a limit of 45kph on the assist speed.

These bikes can only be used on roads and specific cycle paths to my understanding, and you have to wear helmet and comply with some other legislation.

My understanding is the dongle removes the cut off speed... so they wouldn't even be able to be used under those circumstances.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

Do haibikes or any other makes that are sold in Germany come with a different part number of a motor? Or are the same motors used just not restricted?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Not sure what you mean... sPedelecs.... like this one we sell.

http://www.bikediscount.de/KTM-Macina-Egnition-27-GPS-45

use the 350w / 45kph motor, which is a specific Bosch product designed for sPedelecs.

http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/komponenten/drive_unit/drive_unit.php

Bosch call it the SPEED motor.

So this is a different motor to the standard one as its estricted to 45kph, not 25kph.

 

[nemesis]

do the 250w motors the same internals as the speed 350w motor or does the speed motor have uprated gears to cope with the extra strain,because there is a difference in price.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

Exactly my question. Since bosch has different units for 25 and 45km 2 things may take place. Either the 45 had stronger internals to cope or the 25 is just restricted via software.

It's cheaper for bosch to do the second to be honest for the sake of materials and production.

All I am trying to understand is that if I did have a normal ebike in Germany and dongled it to get to 45km then bosch in practice bosch shouldn't be denying warranty as essentially it must be the same motor.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

it doesn't matter. If Bosch say they won't warranty the 250w if you dongle it... they won't warranty it.

essentially its their ball, and their game - and if you want to play with it, you have to play by their rules. Or simply go it on your own without their support

It could be because they don't want you messing with it, and no anything to do with the wear.

 

[soundwave]

250-350 same motor http://www.pro-cycling-golla.de/Bosch_Active_Performance_Line/Antriebseinheit_Performance_artikel53b84c8b8ded1.html

 

[flecc]

is it legal for a dealer to sell an S class bike or dongled bike and only use by the buyer is illegal when it is ridden away,if this is correct then does the dealer face any third party claims if there is an accident?,or has it never happened.

It's perfectly legal for a dealer to sell a bicycle with any power or speed capability, or any other vehicle illegal for use on the roads. In law it's the usage that is legislated for. That is why all manner of illegal vehicles have been sold for years and continue to be sold with impunity, such things as mini-motos and powered pavement scooters. Not to mention the sale of 200+ mph cars in a country where the highest possible speed limit is 70mph and the national speed limit is 60mph.

Some maintain that a dealer might face insurance liabilities if they sell a potentially illegal use vehicle that is involved in an accident, but that is clearly wrong. A dealer is not even remotely involved in the usage if they have not discussed the matter of legality with the customer or promoted use on the public roads. They therefore have no civil or legal liabilities. There have been injuries and I believe even at least one death resulting from illegal mini-moto use, plus numerous deaths and permanent injuries resulting from car accidents at over 70mph, but no dealer or importer has ever been held liable in any way.
.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

Thanks for that link sound wave. Do you have one with a yamaha motor as well?

KTM it's exactly as you say unfortunately. It's their ballgame.

I haven't investigated thoroughly but are there bike models sold here that are sold in Germany with the 350 motor? If so is the motor the only difference? Or do the spedelecs come with larger brakes, tyres, or more robust frame to cope with the extra power?

 

[soundwave]

http://www.pro-cycling-golla.de/Yamaha/Motoreinheit_250_W_4-Kant_artikel549e8cf9f0180.html

 

[Nealh]

I guess Jresa's made a fool out of me then.

That's what you get for being a trusting soul

The only fool I see in this thread is Jresa for not being able to back up their accusations with any substance what so ever and trying to sully the reputation of a business.

 

[nemesis]

if S class bikes are legal for dealers to sell why doesn`t ktm who go by the mantra ``READY TO RACE`` get on with it,i think the design of their bikes are up there with the best but i wouldn`t buy a uk one.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

if S class bikes are legal for dealers to sell why doesn`t ktm who go by the mantra ``READY TO RACE`` get on with it,i think the design of their bikes are up there with the best but i wouldn`t buy a uk one.

We won't sell them, because there is no way you can use them legally...

so as much as Flecc might think this:

Some maintain that a dealer might face insurance liabilities if they sell a potentially illegal use vehicle that is involved in an accident, but that is clearly wrong. A dealer is not even remotely involved in the usage if they have not discussed the matter of legality with the customer or promoted use on the public roads. They therefore have no civil or legal liabilities. There have been injuries and I believe even at least one death resulting from illegal mini-moto use, plus numerous deaths and permanent injuries resulting from car accidents at over 70mph, but no dealer or importer has ever been held liable in any way.
.

But I'm afraid our advise is that our dealers would be liable should an accident happen. There are a number of reasons for this that I won't go over and over again. But believe me, if we could sell them, we'd love to.

In addition it is also about us having a bit of corporate responsibility, and knowing that there is simply no way of using these bikes legally in the UK means that we're not prepared to put our customers in the position where they will be breaking the law.

 

[flecc]

if S class bikes are legal for dealers to sell why doesn`t ktm who go by the mantra ``READY TO RACE`` get on with it,i think the design of their bikes are up there with the best but i wouldn`t buy a uk one.

Conscience, that's why.

All importers and dealers know that the e-bikes they sell will be used in public places.

Some like 50cycles and ebikeshop only concern themselves with their entirely legal business and not with what their customers do after sales, which is really none of their business.

Some importers and dealers don't like selling into what they know will be illegal use. Therefore despite the customer's usage being none of their business, they choose through conscience to not be associated in any way with illegal use.

We have both, and choice is always good for consumers.
.