Electric kits vs. new bike

[coops]

Very sensible I think flecc, but... help! I'm being drawn to the dark side! I'm going to try to talk my friend out of getting a kit, maybe buy 2nd hand instead?

stuart.

 

[Leonardo]

I feel quite embarrassed . I don’t want to spoil your forum – where I’ve learned so much - with our bad habits . As already said, the Italian scene is rather different from the English one: we don’t have the good-quality mid-price bikes that you have. We have a few high level bicycles (like Flyer), the new Giant and a couple of reliable “national” brands, each one with its defects, and very little more exept a lot of chinese trash that I guess you have as well. That’s the reason why there is so much interest for the kits by us. Being able to choose, I think that a complete bicycle is better too. Personally I have my old Lafree and a Flyer T8 for my wife and I’ve never fitted a kit: if I'll do it, it will be the English Nano-motor (just bought a Brompton ! ).

But to answer to your questions Stuart. My friend confirms what we said. He doesn’t know the exact weight because he didn’t weighed it before mounting, but he says that it seems him to be the same one of Mark of Endless-Sphere, also looking at the inside.
I think that the Nine-continents is quite different from the kit proposed from Kranawetter, which appears me very similar to the one installed by CH Whites on their electric Dahon. What I know of this latter motor is only that on the folding with 20" wheels bought by some members of the Italian forum it was satisfactory, but on the greater models it had been found a bit weak by some members of the French forum (always at 24V). The Nine-continents instead turns out quite satisfactory on the larger wheels.

 

[coops]

Thanks Leonardo, e non ci è problema you are always most welcome here .

The kit from Kranawetter appears then to be more "spin" than "push" in larger wheels, lacking power/torque for its wheelspin speed: the 9-continents looks well-balanced in that respect (it seems not easy to find a good motor kit, eh?).

The weights of the motors is far from clear to me, but broadly it seems that the velectris superphantom type motor/kit (minus battery) is about 6-7kg, so comparable/less than crystalyte 4xx motors, and the phantom type kit is lighter at around 5kg (maybe the 5.4kg is the weight of the whole kit, without battery?) - all sounds rather too heavy for me! The size difference given by velectris is 80mm, the same as Mark said, so that agrees.

Just to add, maybe its a coincidence but the controller box in the 9-continents kit looks rather similar to a new controller being tested for the latest edition of the English/US puma motors - large image giving dimensions on that page, more images here .

You know, its funny that here we often see the same bikes sold by different companies, while for you its spotting the same components/kits sold by different people!

One more thing, on 9-continents wheel hub motor page Mark's motor looks like the JZ-RH154, the phantom type JZ-FH154 and the superphantom appears to be JZ-RH205... so I wonder if there is a difference (more than cosmetic) between "FH" and "RH" ?!

EDIT: 'R' for 'Rear motor' & 'F' for 'Front motor'...! now I'm embarassed... So both appear to be the same '154' model motors, just with fittings for front or rear.

also the GL1 on the Australian kit site looks like model JZBD, except that must be the brushed motor ('B1' lower on that page) so although the casing looks different I think the GL1's dimensions (8cm narrower than GL2) correspond with the phantom/'JZ-RH154' model? In which case either they've made it lighter since, or some facts are wrong i.e. weight may be more like 5kg not 3kg... (and again GL2 looks to be the JZ-RH205/superphantom "pancake" motor).

Stuart.

 

[Lordylordy]

Yes Simon, a lifelong engineer in many disciplines.

Those hills aren't too bad and will be easy with the Forza.

Edge Hill will be very easy.

Just the middle steep bit on The Downs will be not quite so easy, but as that's so short this might be your best for sheer ease since the Forza would fly over it on the run.

The dogleg middle section on Arterbury Road eases the climb quite a bit, and it's only the last stretch at the top that will make the Forza work at all.

Certainly no problems though.
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Hi Flecc

I saw your review on the Kalkhoff Agattu. Would you rate it over the Forza, based on the research and info you so kindly did for me a few monthsw ago.

Many thanks,

Lordy!

 

[flecc]

They are very different bikes, as different as chalk and cheese as the saying goes.

Although the Forza has a pedelec mode, it remains very much a throttle controlled bike and very powerful. In most areas one could ride nearly all the time without pedalling, the motor of around 680 watts peak power only needing assistance on the steeper hills. As such, it's an underpowered motorcycle with a motor that needs a bit of help at times.

The Panasonic powered bikes are the opposite, very much a bicycle still, though rather heavier than bikes normally are. To help the cyclist when necessary, there's some motor power available in 3 levels, 50% of the rider power added (Eco), 100% of the rider power added (Standard), and 135% of the rider power added (High power mode). Therefore each amount is always proportional to the rider's ability. The most powerful rider can get the most assistance, the weakest rider the least. This might seem contrary to what's needed, but it emphasizes that the cycling experience always relates to the rider in the saddle.

For example, put in some more effort to climb a hill a bit faster, and the motor will track that extra and keep it's proportion consistent, therefore feeling natural to that person. If the cyclist is a fit male in his prime years, the 200 watts he can maintain on a long hill would be matched by another 200 watts from the motor in standard mode.

In contrast, just opening a throttle on the Forza to get more power would add up to 680 watts, completely disproportionate to the rider input, and relegating the cycling part to a minor status. Of course the throttle could be held at a lower level to make it proportional, but that's not very easy to do consistently and requires constant self discipline.

So it's a matter of priorities. Is the important thing the easiest possible journey (Forza), or is it to cycle but get a bit of help with the tough stuff (Kalkhoff).

Both bikes will manage just about anything, but the Kalkhoff will fare better, albeit slower, on the very steepest hills, while the Forza will outpace the Kalkhoff with ease on the flat and on gentle slopes.

And as ever, there's nothing to beat trying out both if at all possible, and it's worth the inconvenience and cost of a journey to do that.
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[Lordylordy]

Thanks Flecc - excellent and detailed response, as always!!

Lordy

 

[HarryB]

....while the Forza will outpace the Kalkhoff with ease on the flat and on gentle slopes.

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Just to clarify a point are you comparing a derestricted Forza with the Kalkoff? From memory, in your review you talked about the Agattu being able to run up to about 17mph but I know my restricted Torq was a struggle to peddle much above 16mph. It might of course only be the foolish than buy a Forza and keep it restricted but I would want to try and stay legal (within reason).

 

[flecc]

Even a restricted one will tend to give better averages Hal, simply because the power enables it to maintain it at 15 mph much of the time. You'll notice that on my Kalkhoff test, I was reporting avarages of around 12.5 mph when not stopping for special tests etc, but the powerful eZee models can average about 15 mph when restricted, because they do it on the flat, up moderate slopes and into headwinds while exceeding it downhill. The more hilly the area, the more true that is.

In completely flat conditions, and in still air, the eZeebike wouldn't have that advantage of course, evening things out, since both could perform as well if the Kalkhoff rider was moderately fit.
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[derrick7]

Question

I presume if range is added to the account the Kalkhoff will easily better the eZee Forte?

Derrick - Llanberis

 

[derrick7]

Question

I presume if range is added to the account the Kalkhoff will easily better the eZee Forte?

Derrick - Llanberis

 

[flecc]

Yes Derrick, the Forza would have to be ridden with power shut off a lot of the time to match the Panasonic unit's range, and with a hub motor bike that would be very difficult to do.

Range sometimes isn't all that important though. For the many doing up to 10 miles each way on a commuting journey, most newer e-bikes handle that, so for them, performance can be used to the full, regardless of the effects on range.

As commuters value their free time of course, the quickest possible journey can be more important to them than outright economy.
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[Jeremy]

Yes Derrick, the Forza would have to be ridden with power shut off a lot of the time to match the Panasonic unit's range, and with a hub motor bike that would be very difficult to do.

I can understand that the Panasonic drive is fairly low drag, so doesn't impede pedalling very much, but why should a hub motor necessarily be worse?

I'll have to admit not having finished mine yet, but I have the wheel mounted in the forks and it seems to free wheel very easily indeed, in fact I can't detect any appreciable drag from the hub motor. I believe that Frank has done a "real world" test recently by riding his bike with the motor off and found similarly that there's no real drag from it.

Even the big Crystalyte motor I have doesn't really give much drag, although the magnetic cogging at low speed makes it feel as if it does (a bit of analysis soon shows that cogging is a virtually drag-free phenomenom, even though it fooled me into thinking otherwise for a short time!).

I'm guessing here that some of the geared hub motors with no freewheel (are there any?) would give some added resistance with power off, from driving the epicyclic gearbox, but this doesn't seem to be the case for all, or even, perhaps, the majority of hub motors.

Jeremy

 

[fishingpaul]

Another thing to consider is battery life,the ezee lithium batterys have a hard life with all that power, and there are many cut out problems reported on this forum,the kalkhoff battery should last far longer as it is using a lot less power(better suited to lithium batteries),with replacement batterys costing around £300 each this can add a lot to running costs.

 

[flecc]

Wait 'til you ride it Jeremy!

Most wheel hub motors spin very freely when it's manually done, but if you glance at a speedo while doing that, you'll typically see around 3 or 4 mph.

In practice on the road, all hub motor bikes are a pain to pedal without power compared with the Panasonic system, there being no comparison. The reason is not the motor of course, since that almost always has a freewheel, it's the orbital gears that have to be driven by the wheel. Quite why they create so much drag at 12 to 15 mph is a bit of a mystery, but as all of us who've ridden both know, they certainly do.

Basically, a good Panasonic powered bike with power off on the flat feels just like an ordinary bike, something no hub-motor bike can ever seem like if it's switched off. I strongly disagree with anyone who says hub motors add no drag. That's why hub motor bikes have no off-switch on the handlebars, since it would be no use, while all Panasonic powered bikes do have that off-switch right next to the handgrip, where riders can and do use it all the time.

N.B. A few hub motors have no freewheel, notably the original Suede motor and those intended for regeneration of course, like the new Twist.
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[jha07]

Hmm... So even a geared hub motors that can free wheel would ride with enough resistance that you would notice it? I thought the new ezee hub motor kit that they sell at ebikes would have little to no motor drag.
I know my crystalyte motor does have a fair bit of drag. If I keep the speed below 20km/h, it's not too bad. But I wouldn't want to ride much faster manually.

 

[flecc]

Yes, speed is the answer as I indicated jha07. They all feel very free to the hand, but as road speed rises the drag sets in.

I've tried everything on the eZee motor from the Torq and Quando bikes to achieve completely free running when creating the Q and T bikes as those who've read about those know, but even when all conditions are made as perfect as they could be by optimising, they don't begin to compare with a good ordinary bike, or the Lafree Twist or Kalkhoff Agattu.
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[Jeremy]

In practice on the road, all hub motor bikes are a pain to pedal without power compared with the Panasonic system, there being no comparison.

Well, this is simply incorrect, as I have pedalled my Crystalyte at speed and the only adverse effect is the peculiar gyro-like effect from the heavy motor. Similarly, Frank pedalled his hub motor bike recently, power off, for about 10 miles, I believe, and reported that the hub motor made little difference.

I can accept that, as I said above, if gears are rotating then there will be some drag, but there are no gears to rotate in many hub motors, plus some seem to have a free wheel that disconnects the gears anyway.

Sorry, I can't see how all hub motors can be said to be draggy, when it's quite clear that a large number of them aren't.

Jeremy

 

[HarryB]

The Tonxin motor does have less drag than most hub motors I have tried. I am sure that the drag is more than the Panasonic drive (which I have never tried) but it is very different to the Ezee motor (in the Torq) which feels difficult to ride without power. There are disadvantages to roller drive but the payoff is the ease of riding without power.

 

[fishingpaul]

the powabyke and sakura motors also have very little drag,they really pick up speed quickly downhill with all that weight.

 

[flecc]

Wrong.

No orbital gear hub motor bike has the same drag as a normal bike.

To claim so is simply irrational, since the orbital gears cannot have zero drag.

Perhaps those who say that they add no drag will explain why none of them have an off-switch to hand when riding to improve the economy, while every bike over seven years using the Panasonic system does have, giving them the big marketing advantage of a comparatively long range.

Jeremy, you've misinterpreted the freewheel function in hub motors, the freewheel disconnects the motor from the gears, the gears are always connected to the hub via it's orbital ring which is embedded in the hub, and therefore always engaged with the wheel, the orbital set having to be turned by it all the time. The drag on the Tongxin hub will be lower since it's a roller drive, no gear tooth engagement drag.
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