Electric kits vs. new bike

[Leonardo]

Thank you flecc.

"A man whom one cannot hope to emulate"...
(It should be an English poet... Eliot maybe?)

 

[flecc]

Thanks Leonardo. I don't know if that's Eliot since my engineer's knowledge doesn't extend into that area of the arts, however electrifying
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[Lordylordy]

Thanks Langtry.
Funnily enough I have been following your thread so feel I know you already. I'm really glad to hear you're having such success with your bike - I hope I can emulate you in the not too distant future.
And I agree - the team at 50cycles seem to be leaders of the pack...well, just behind Flecc maybe.
Cheers,
Simon

 

[Lordylordy]

Thanks YET AGAIN Flecc - your skills and knowledge continue to amaze me...and quite a few others, it would seem!
And it is strangely comforting to hear you referring with expertise to so many streets that I know. (One of my sons is at School on The Downs that you refer to!)
Also very reassuring that you feel the Forza will handle these with ease. A previous car of mine once had a problem dealing with them, albeit in the snow.
Talking of snow, or inclement weather, my better half thinks I should wait until next spring to get the bike, to avoid the winter weather approaching. Not sure I agree, but is it true that the law is about to change re. throttle-type bikes? And what is the main difference between these and the other types - cruise control?
Thanks once again Flecc,
Simon

 

[Bikerbob]

Don't wait for Spring. There will be lots of clear, dry days in winter when you could be out enjoying your bike, whichever you choose. You may get a better deal - or at least get immediate delivery - at this time of year, which may not be the case in Spring when demand will be greater.

 

[easycommuter]

Pedelec vs Throttle

Hi Lordy Lordy

In case this wasn't clear, with a throttle it is basically just like what you would imagine a motor bike to have. In otherwords the more you twist the throttle handle fitted to your bike, the more power is sent to the motor. A pedelec has some sort of sensor that cleverly senses when you apply pressure to the pedals, to also send power to the electric motor. I'm afraid I am not technical, so that is far as I get in terms of how it actually works.

I know there has been some favourable discussion, in another thread, about a control on (one of?) the Forza Forte (?) models by 50 Cycles which allows you to set a control to vary the amount of assistance you are given. (I must admit, the control looked particularly easy to vandalise to me, but 50 Cycles said they were refining the design to make it less vulnerable). I found there was a very very slight delay between applying pressure and the motor kicking in, but I got used to that very quickly.

As flecc says with the Forza/Forte (?) you would have the option to switch between throttle and pedelec modes

 

[Lordylordy]

I agree Bikerbob, but the main use I have for my bike is to get me out of my car more often so that I can cycle to/from work. I potentially have an idyllic - but challenging - ride across Wimbledon Common and then Richmond Park (if you know this area in London). Fine in the mornings, but the park closes at dusk in the winter, so I'd have a completely different ride back on the roads.
Take your point though about pricing and delivery, but is there a particular time of year when the bike manufacturers announce/release their new models? (I bought a camera last year that was superseded about 2 weeks later, slicing an immediate 30% off the value of mine!)
Cheers!

 

[flecc]

Hi Simon. I wouldn't wait for Spring, given how variable our seasons are anyway, unless you want to avoid riding in the dark as much as possible. If you do choose to ride in the winter, best budget for some additional lighting for added safety. The standard lights are adequate for good responsible car drivers, but there are plenty of car drivers who fall well short of that standard. The F series bikes are a very recent introduction so won't be getting replaced/superceded for a long time. There have been the usual initial revisions but they appear to be settled now as I described them.

At some future date it's almost inevitable that we'll have to comply with the European law and have pedelec power only, since that should already be in force and has only been avoided due to a civil service mistake at the time of implementation. The change will probably be sooner rather than later. Throttles are still permitted, but no power is allowed without pedalling at the same time under the Europe wide law.

New model introductions do tend to be in early spring as you'd expect, but I've seen no discounting at varying times, the bike prices tending to remain consistent throughout the year. The only exception is the occasional small promotional reduction to shift some stock, 5% to 10% occasionally.
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[rooel]

On our Italian forum we have discovered a quite good kit on ebay: it is the "nine continent" hub motor sold by a German seller, which is exactly the same motor sold by Velectris in France with the name "phantom" (two o three times the price!). Another seller from Hungary sells the bigger one, called "superphantom" in France.

Compared to a good electric bicycle those kits (provided whitout batteries and front hub only) have of course all the disavantages that Flecc says, but at the moment they are still very cheap and our experiences are not disappointing. May be an useful information for someone having already a good bicycle looking for a first 'electric experience' with a little budget .

How about this one here: Conversion Kit,Electric Bicycle,Electric Bike,Hubmotor - eBay Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 12-Oct-07 02:06:09 BST). It looks like a nano and they can fit it to 20 inch wheels upwards. As the quoted overall weight of 10kgs includes everything, all the options and possibly also the weight of the rim and spokes, the motor itself may be the same light weight as the nano.

 

[flecc]

How about this one here: Conversion Kit,Electric Bicycle,Electric Bike,Hubmotor - eBay Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 12-Oct-07 02:06:09 BST). It looks like a nano and they can fit it to 20 inch wheels upwards. As the quoted overall weight of 10kgs includes everything, all the options and possibly also the weight of the rim and spokes, the motor itself may be the same light weight as the nano.

This 180 watt motor is too low powered for Simon's need though. It wouldn't give the help he's looking for on the hills in question and will have barely over half the gross power of the Forza he's considering.
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[Leonardo]

We had some experiences with a foldable bike sold last year by the same supplier with the same motor, I think. Exept from some battery troubles, it proved to be not so bad and very good value for money, but only thanks to the 20" wheel size. On a bigger bike - tested on the French forum by more than one user - this motor was too underpowered, as Flecc says. As a kit, the 'nine continent' one seems to be far more interesting.

 

[coops]

Ciao

On our Italian forum we have discovered a quite good kit on ebay: it is the "nine continent" hub motor

Thanks for the links Leonardo an interesting & quite cheap electric bike kit!

A friend wants a cheap DIY electric bike kit, so this might do!

I'll tell him to make a NiMH battery from cheap AA cells too, so the whole kit should come in at around £200!

I understand that the "9 continents" motor is brushless, gearless (direct drive) and weighs about 5.4kg? Quite heavy? (though still much lighter than crystalyte 4xx motors!) Do you think that is the weight of motor only, or the total weight of motor spoked into the rim? I couldn't find this information.

It would also appear to give about 17.5mph top speed under load from a 36V battery (when derestricted), and can be run at higher voltage, up to say 48V, if more speed is required "offroad"? Should be reasonably powerful too, with a 15A controller limit gives peak power near 600W @ 36V, 800W @ 48V?

Quite a nice find though, if they deliver to the UK . Its giving me ideas to convert my MTB to a dirt ebike though I should know better after what flecc has said, and buy a custom-made electric bike... I'll just help out my pal & see how his DIY goes...;-)

Stuart.

 

[Leonardo]

Hi Stuart, I think that I should confirm what you say but I’ve forwarded your questions to the friend of the Italian forum who knows better this kit, so if there is something to correct I’ll let you now.

As far as I know the 5.4 kg is the weight of the motor, it is easy to derestrict, the controller can be easily switched from 16 to 20A, and it can be run at 48V.

After we started to try it in Italy there has been a bit of discussion on the French forum as well, about the “identity problem” with the Velectris and about its fitting, working and riding experience.

 

[coops]

Thanks for the information Leonardo and I much appreciate your efforts on jobike.it on my behalf I'll drop in the international forum there to say hello shortly .

Thanks also for the extra links . You may be aware of this, but I noticed a member of the endless-sphere forum has a different 9-continents motor, seems 1 or 2kg lighter? He says elsewhere it is like motor GL2 listed here (looks like velectris super phantom?!) except smaller diameter and 3kg lighter, like a mini-phantom perhaps? He also describes changes to his bike & motor setup.

stuart.

 

[Leonardo]

Thanks for the links Stuart, I didn't see the one on Endless-Sphere. It appears me very similar to the "phantom" that we know. Could it be then 3 kg. the motor + 2.4 the rim?! I don't know really. Anyway here is the web page of nine-continent, with all its hub motors. The bigger one on the australian site looks like the super-phantom: till some time ago it was sold on ebay at a much cheaper price by an hungarian seller.

(International circulation of information is a must! )

 

[coops]

Grazie Elle

(International circulation of information is a must! )

Definitely so! bene!

I am curious about the 9-continents motor of Mark on endless-sphere: I think it is different from the "phantom" one, maybe smaller & seems much lighter - on page 2 of that endless-sphere thread Mark says:

Here are some pics of my motor - it looks VERY SIMILAR to the pics of the GL2 motor on Brett's Island Earth website. Even has the little bamboo toothpicks holding the wires. About the only design difference is it has the yellow "pcb" around the windings. Everything else is the same, from the black axel with shiny bearing area, to the way the wires are glued in with white goop.

Except it's about 80mm smaller than the GL2, and 3kgs lighter. I'm happy with the torque of this motor, so the GL2 must have heaps.

So any thoughts on whether it will take 48v? The winding wire looks to be about 0.6-0.8mm diameter.

So if GL2 = superphantom, then his motor is 80mm less diameter and 3kg lighter!! Nice .

stuart.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Yes it will, I've got one. Hi Flecc

Griz

 

[coops]

Hi Griz

(Heavily edited post!...)

That kit looks interesting too: some confusion here I think - I don't think the motor listed there is the nano/tongxin - its not geared for one thing, and looks to be heavier (you "salvaged" yours from your Upland 26, didn't you - I thought you meant you'd bought it from that site!). Are you running your nano at about 40V with your Lidl AA cell NiMH battery and a 15A controller?! That would pep it up a bit! 570W peak power, hotrod ebikes eh? How fast does that go then?

Its very odd that there's no information at all about top speed of the motor in that link in any given wheelsize its available in from 20-28" to be decided after purchase... how does that work??? are we to assume that all are road legal i.e. in 28" rim top speed is less than 25km/h or whatever?

No FAQ to that effect, either?! Maybe no-ones even asking them any Q's!

Stuart.

 

[coops]

Although it says (taken from babelfish translation) on this page:

ENGINE PERFORMANCE to 250W (maximum performance to 500W)

(in the context of the auction completion you can select electronics (180W continuous duty) or 36V electronics (270W continuous duty) between 24V!)

which I take to mean a 36V 500W peak version is available, from your remarks Leonardo I take it that the motor/controller disappoints by either high rpm or low torque in a larger wheel than 20"? In that respect I agree the nine-continents motor looks useful for a 26" wheel, say, with good torque and power possibilities, well balanced with the wheel's rpm, for both road-legal and off-road use .

stuart.

 

[flecc]

Yes it will, I've got one. Hi Flecc

Griz

Hi Griz. I'm keeping out of this one, these kits not my scene.
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