Electric Bike law and the Torq

[Baboonking]

What prompted my thread entry was that a local officer who'd seen me riding electric bikes for years and normally taken no notice, was obviously following me at just over 20 mph, albeit with me pedalling. Luckily I use a bar end mirror in my urban area and spotted him, so I simulated both huge pedalling effort and gradually lost speed, faking out of breath as he then passed.

That's my favorite trick , although I haven't as yet noticed any police actually watching me I do it as a precautionary measure. I suppose mirrors are essential for high speed ebike riding.

In over 20 years of cycling I've only once been stopped by the police and that was for not having lights. I was 16 at the time and they were pretty nice about, infact, given how silly it was maybe too nice.

I'm guessing that electric bikes really aren't on the police radar at all. Infact I really wonder how many people know my bike is electric and how many just think I'm a superfit cyclist. Do they(police) even have the kit to check for speed in car? And even if they did they'd have to prove that it was the motor and not pedalling. I can't see how they'd do that without siezeing the bike and taking it in for an analysis.

I think all this might become an issue if electric bikes become really popular and invevitably, we will have people riding badly at 22mph and causing accidents/scaring people etc.

That said, if ebikes actually become popular we might just have the political clout to bring in more just laws.

 

[rsscott]

The only time the local bobbies have been interested in my bike was before xmas when they were attending an accident. They were most impressed by my lights (HID x 2) and didn't even notice the bike was electric!

And even if they did they'd have to prove that it was the motor and not pedalling. I can't see how they'd do that without siezeing the bike and taking it in for an analysis.

That's the crux of it. How could anyone prove what was providing the power at the time, the bike, the rider or both and in what ratio? The 15mph is essentially meanlingless and unenforcable. The only way it could work is if the bike is motor driven only and has active braking to prevent it exceeding the speed limit. We all know how likely that is to happen!

Even if they tested the bike with power only and it exceeded 15mph that still wouldn't change anything. I can get in any car right now and easily exceed the speed limit, many cars have the ability now to do more than twice the limit.

 

[Baboonking]

I think if they could prove that the bike had the ability to go above 15mph then they could sieze it and presumably charge you with riding an unlicensed motor vehicle regardless of whether they actually clock you going faster than 15mph?

Aside of the actual law I think you'd really have to annoy a cop to have them sieze your bicycle.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

I am not worried about going over the speed limit as others have said what difference is there when a racing cyclist goes wizzing by at 20mph at least on the torq you would be more in control at that speed
That could change if there were a rash of accidents with people mostly on the torq but we are a sensible bunch and not speed freaks so i say make more bikes with speed limiters at least we have a choice? nigel.

 

[rsscott]

I think if they could prove that the bike had the ability to go above 15mph then they could sieze it and presumably charge you with riding an unlicensed motor vehicle regardless of whether they actually clock you going faster than 15mph?

I guess that is the million dollar question! To complicate matters further, how would the law deal with an individual who has changed the gearing or the wheel size with the side-effect of a greater top speed before the motor cuts out?

 

[flecc]

I think if they could prove that the bike had the ability to go above 15mph then they could sieze it and presumably charge you with riding an unlicensed motor vehicle regardless of whether they actually clock you going faster than 15mph?

That's right, if it's capable of over 15 mph motor assist whether pedalled or not, or if it's over 40 kilos weight, it's an unregistered motor cycle. That's a considerable list of charges.

Unregistered, no number plates, no road fund tax, no MOT if it's been on the road three years or more, several construction and use regulations likely to have been broken re: lights, reflectors, mirrors, approach warning device etc., tyre pressures possibly outside manufacturer's recommendations, possibly no driving licence, no insurance. Possibly even illegally parked as well for good measure!

Oh well. At least after the conviction they couldn't ban someone for riding a legal one away from the court and getting a small last laugh.
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[rsscott]

......or if it's over 40 kilos weight.........

With the EAPC regulations and a maximum kerbside weight of 40kg, does this include/exclude accessories ?

 

[Baboonking]

I can't see the police enforcing it unless you were riding your bike in such a way that it was obvious that it capable of way over 16mph.

Imagine you get into a situation with a cop that knows the law well (pretty unlikely)also has a fair understanding of physics and also doesn't like you. He see's you doing 25mph and pulls you. He says something like "does that bike comply with the european UK law, can it go over 16mph?)

You then say no that its a normal electric bike and that you were just pedallling hard.

He then has to make a decision to seize your bike, and somehow get you and the bike into his patrol car. Of course he could call for backup and get a van

It all just seems pretty unlikely to me. I think you'd have to be either doing pretty drastic to get into trouble.

 

[flecc]

Judging by the way other parts of the regulations apply to the way the bike is supplied, I would guess it's the bike's weight as supplied. That seems unlikely to affect anything added, since that's effectively no different from carrying items like shopping etc, or the rider weight for that matter.

As ever though, such a grey area that the police are unlikely to venture into it. They have enough headaches already without looking for more to do.
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[nigel]

Nigel

As you say flecc at the moment the police have other things to look out ie mobile phones used in cars that should keep them busy while we continue on our 20mph way maybe looking a bit sheepish

 

[Baboonking]

J

As ever though, such a grey area that the police are unlikely to venture into it. They have enough headaches already without looking for more to do.
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I think there's a parallel with derestricked mopeds or motorbikes. my understanding is that its very rarely enforced even though the law is clear its a legal/practical headache for the police to enforce. They may suspect you of riding a derestricted by bike but they're much more likely to give you points for speeding or check your license and check the condition of bike, all the later being simple to enforce.

 

[Andy]

That's right, if it's capable of over 15 mph motor assist whether pedalled or not, or if it's over 40 kilos weight, it's an unregistered motor cycle. That's a considerable list of charges.

Unregistered, no number plates, no road fund tax, no MOT if it's been on the road three years or more, several construction and use regulations likely to have been broken re: lights, reflectors, mirrors, approach warning device etc., tyre pressures possibly outside manufacturer's recommendations, possibly no driving licence, no insurance. Possibly even illegally parked as well for good measure!

Oh well. At least after the conviction they couldn't ban someone for riding a legal one away from the court and getting a small last laugh.
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Exactly everything that's wrong with this country. Do they have this nonsense on the Continent? When I lived in spain there was this velo-solex type thing called a mobylette, it was essentially a petrol version of the e-bike (moped type). Pretty sure it could go faster than 15 mph!

This technology could solve our traffic congestion problem and save people tons of petrol money at a stroke, loads of people would ride them to work if it wasn't for that poxy speed limit. Isn't there a petition I can sign or something?

 

[flecc]

There are classes for faster types, but here only with all the registration etc.

However it did work at one time. In the 1950s we had a number of two stroke cyclemotors for adding to bikes from 25cc to 50cc, and the some of the latter were quite fast. They did have to be registered and had a back number plate, but that didn't deter anyone and at the peak there were around a million of them on the road.

The scooters like the Vespa and Lambretta captured the public interest after that and the cyclemotors disappeared rapidly. I don't think they are legal any more, but if the public had carried on using them, they would have remained so.

I still seriously doubt there really is a demand for this type of low cost transport, since whenever it's existed in the past, the public have dropped it in favour of the inexorable movement towards cars. Before the cyclemotors we had the autocycles, then the cyclemotors, followed by scooters, but it's cars the public wants, and nothing will tempt them away from them.

We are very much a minority. All of us have the same experiences of many people expressing interest in our e-bikes, but virtually none of us know of that interest turning into a purchase, the inquirers invariably getting into their cars, happiest of all with that mode of transport.

Sad maybe, but that's the way it is here and the other side of the Atlantic. There are also signs that it's happening in mainland Europe too, with even the Dutch gradually increasing their car usage at the cost of cycling. And of course the developing areas are also following, the Chinese getting behind steering wheels at a very rapid rate now.

Therefore I think any petition like that you propose would be very poorly supported and get short thrift from the politicians, who in any case are bound by the restrictions of European law. The law in most European countries is usually as restrictive as ours, but the difference is that they often ignore the law with an official blind eye turned. In parts of Italy for example, it's not uncommon to see a child as young as eight years old riding a petrol scooter with police present, and their identical motorbike helmet laws are widely ignored with bare headed riders everywhere.
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[Ian]

it was essentially a petrol version of the e-bike (moped type). Pretty sure it could go faster than 15 mph!

It may have been capable of more than 15mph but without registration etc. it would be just as illegal in Spain as here, at least since they joined the EU. As EU members the UK and Spain share the same definition of a bike that doesn't require type approval etc, and that excludes anything with an ic engine. I think the UK police would be more inclined to act than their more laid back Spanish counterparts though.

Petrol engine conversion kits are on sale in this country, they very definitely fall foul of the law even though the advert implies they are ok to use on the road. It's clear from the sellers feedback that a number have been sold and I wonder how many are in use on the road.

I do actually support the present laws, any faster and we're into moped territory which quite rightly requires compulsory 3rd party insurance. I would be against high speed machines having the right to use shared paths with pedestrians, there is always the argument that kids can go faster on unpowered bikes but most of these don't have the mass to seriously harm a pedestrian. The same cannot be said of of a heavyweight electric bike.

There is nothing to stop anyone who wishes to go faster purchasing a type approved bike such as a Swizzbee 50C, it will need insurance etc. though.

 

[alex]

I support the 15 mph limit for elecrically assisted riding, it is compatible with shared use paths & does not change the nature of the bike radically, also your batteries take you alot further with low powered motors at modest speeds. Of course if it is safe to ride faster there is nothing better than a stretch of open road & a good downhill run, but on a heavy powered bike high speeds will lead to accidents. Those riders should be insured.