EBMA files an anti dumping complaint on chinese e-bikes.

[Wisper Bikes]

Hi Col, the vast majority of bikes sold into EU are still shipped in from Asia. When anti dumping was inflicted on the industry production simply moved within Asia and to Tunisia. Europe does not make any more bikes now than when antidumping on ordinary bikes was imposed. IMO It was a complete waste of time.

Most of the brands you mention rely heavily on China for parts.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Europe does not make any more bikes now than when anti-dumping on ordinary bikes was imposed. IMO It was a complete waste of time.

Most of the brands you mention rely heavily on China for parts.

Yes, I know they rely on parts from China, as I've said before I think its pretty cleat the EU doesn't want the manufacturing industry, it just wants the assembly lines.

Which is why the brands all source their parts from around the world and make them into bikes inside the EU, therefore just paying the lower tariff on parts and not the higher one on complete bikes.

Do you have any actual data to back up your claim that Europe doesn't make any more bikes, because I know loads of brands that have moved production to the EU. But I don't have any data to back up that, its just based on my time working with a lot of them.

 

[Woosh]

Do you have any actual data to back up your claim that Europe doesn't make any more bikes, because I know loads of brands that have moved production to the EU. But I don't have any data to back up that, its just based on my time working with a lot of them.

This chart comes from CONEBI:

The anti-dumping saga initiated by EBMA back in the early 1980s still runs and runs.
The fact is simple: China exports more and more bicylces into the EU despite anti-dumping and circumvention.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

This chart comes from CONEBI:

The anti-dumping saga initiated by EBMA back in the early 1980s still runs and runs.
The fact is simple: China exports more and more bicylces into the EU despite anti-dumping and circumvention.

Ok, so there is no way of looking at the numbers from before the anti dumping was introduced? That data is just since 2000, so doesn't show if more or less bikes are built in Europe as a result of the policy.

Also we can't say with any certainty that if the duty wasn't there, the 13,149,000 bikes built in the EU wouldn't be built in China can we?

But the fact that China is exporting more bikes into the EU doesn't mean the anti dumping has failed. Just think at all that lovely money thats in the countries banks because of the duty they've been able to collect.

 

[Woosh]

Ok, so there is no way of looking at the numbers from before the anti dumping was introduced?

yes, you can read all about it in this book:

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/30817/

Imports from China continued to increase during and after the investigation period, back in 1983 then when anti-dumping duty was increased to 48.5%.
There is no way EU producers can compete on price, that what the action was all about. Chinese manufacturers enter into partnership with EBMA and CONEBI members, productions got moved to other countries etc, production in the EU becomes more and more an assembly job.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

yes, you can read all about it in this book:

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/30817/

Imports from China continued to increase during and after the investigation period, back in 1983 then when anti-dumping duty was increased to 48.5%.
There is no way EU producers can compete on price, that what the action was all about. Chinese manufacturers enter into partnership with EBMA and CONEBI members, productions got moved to other countries etc, production in the EU becomes more and more an assembly job.

That book is about general imports not about bikes is it. I just wanted to see the graph you've shown go back another 25 years.

 

[Woosh]

That book is about general imports not about bikes is it. I just wanted to see the graph you've shown go back another 25 years.

from page 117, the book detailed the saga of EBMA complaint that led to the introduction of ADD on Chinese bikes. The data is in tables, not easy to copy and paste here.
It's fascinating although may be boring to read. You can read that section online here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_BHcBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=bicycle+assembly+in+eu#v=onepage&q=bicycle assembly in eu&f=false

 

[flecc]

Bicycle sales in the EU averaged some 20 millions per annum over the similar period (from 2000 to about 2015). Since the EU made/assembled around 12 millions average, that leaves 8 millions from overseas sources. That latter figure will be boosted by how many of the EU made bikes are exported to outside the union.

This web page has some relevant graphs.
.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

E.U. Import figures indicate hard drop in trekking, road and mtb sales

Interesting and maybe why the EBMA are so desperate?

It's incredible that the very companies that only ten years ago took every opportunity to knock electric bikes are now relying on them to make ends meet!

http://www.bike-eu.com/sales-trends/nieuws/2018/1/eu-import-figures-indicate-hard-drop-in-trekking-road-and-mtb-sales-10132553

 

[cyclebuddy]

E.U. Import figures indicate hard drop in trekking, road and mtb sales

Interesting and maybe why the EBMA are so desperate?

This may seem a really dumb observation/comment (and tell me if it is)...

But surely the Devil is from within?

It's understandable that Kalkhoff, R&M, Bosch - all those high-brow German manufacturers with a vested interest in wanting to protect their own market(s) from being undercut by competent, low cost, more efficient Far Eastern design and manufacture...

But surely their real competition is already within the EU?

Companies like Romanian Devron...



Devron were selling this MTB - 350w Bafang MaxDrive, Tektro Hydraulic Brakes, Shimano Deore gearing, choice of frame sizes... Supposedly made in the EU, shipping paid into the UK for just £960 throughout December?



It's not a perfect bike (there are a few deficiencies, like a quite small battery), but it does - overall - make the home-grown EU made e-bikes (i.e. read German assembled) look very poor value indeed.

I doubt the enemy is China/Far East/Non-EU makers. The Germans/Austrians just need to wake up and realise that perhaps the real "enemy" - the manufacturers making them look really stupid, expensive and inefficient - are already, in fact, within the EU?

Just sharing my thoughts.

 

[anotherkiwi]

http://www.bike-eu.com/home/nieuws/2018/1/german-government-invests-millions-in-study-on-battery-cell-production-10132536

Will China retaliate?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

E.U. Import figures indicate hard drop in trekking, road and mtb sales

Interesting and maybe why the EBMA are so desperate?

It's incredible that the very companies that only ten years ago took every opportunity to knock electric bikes are now relying on them to make ends meet!

http://www.bike-eu.com/sales-trends/nieuws/2018/1/eu-import-figures-indicate-hard-drop-in-trekking-road-and-mtb-sales-10132553

This just shows that less bikes are being imported into the EU... it doesn't say anything about the sales of the EU made bikes.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

This just shows that less bikes are being imported into the EU... it doesn't say anything about the sales of the EU made bikes.

Good point.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

This may seem a really dumb observation/comment (and tell me if it is)...

But surely the Devil is from within?

It's understandable that Kalkhoff, R&M, Bosch - all those high-brow German manufacturers with a vested interest in wanting to protect their own market(s) from being undercut by competent, low cost, more efficient Far Eastern design and manufacture...

But surely their real competition is already within the EU?

Companies like Romanian Devron...

View attachment 22998

Devron were selling this MTB - 350w Bafang MaxDrive, Tektro Hydraulic Brakes, Shimano Deore gearing, choice of frame sizes... Supposedly made in the EU, shipping paid into the UK for just £960 throughout December?

View attachment 22999

It's not a perfect bike (there are a few deficiencies, like a quite small battery), but it does - overall - make the home-grown EU made e-bikes (i.e. read German assembled) look very poor value indeed.

I doubt the enemy is China/Far East/Non-EU makers. The Germans/Austrians just need to wake up and realise that perhaps the real "enemy" - the manufacturers making them look really stupid, expensive and inefficient - are already, in fact, within the EU?

Just sharing my thoughts.

Also don't forget we're comparing apples and oranges.

Look at cars / motorbikes. You can buy cheap and you can by high end all from very similar factories. Just because you can buy car x for y, doesn't mean people won't buy much more expensive models that still get you from a2b. Bikes are not just a collection of parts to many people.

 

[cyclebuddy]

Also don't forget we're comparing apples and oranges.

Look at cars / motorbikes. You can buy cheap and you can by high end...

Absolutely agreed. So if we look at cars then...

In the J D Power Survey 2017 of the UK's 25 most dependable cars...

Kia (1st), Skoda (3rd) Hyundai (5th) all proved more dependable than Mercedes (15th), Audi (24th), and the most appalling reliability of all cars sold in Britain was German made BMW at 25th place.

So perceptions of being "high-end" are just an illusion? Maybe we're all just better off buying "cheap" as - in reality - it's better/more dependable?

http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/2017-uk-vehicle-dependability-study

 

[anotherkiwi]

The Dacia Logan is second most reliable compact car in France after the Nissan Pulsar and yet Dacia is way down your list... Grain of salt time? Or the ones they export are designed to break down? Maybe having the steering wheel on the wrong side?

 

[cyclebuddy]

The Dacia Logan is second most reliable compact car in France after the Nissan Pulsar and yet Dacia is way down your list... Grain of salt time? Or the ones they export are designed to break down? Maybe having the steering wheel on the wrong side?

Nobody in England has a clue how the French think - or could replicate how the French drive... but the J D Survey is taken (at least here in the UK) as a factual measured survey of British buyers of these cars... and the Dacia still proves more dependable than a BMW! (my own hideously unreliable Mercedes and my Brothers constant stream of factory replaced BMW's bear testament!). Need we bring up Kalkhoff or Bosch motor problems yet again?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Absolutely agreed. So if we look at cars then...

In the J D Power Survey 2017 of the UK's 25 most dependable cars...

Kia (1st), Skoda (3rd) Hyundai (5th) all proved more dependable than Mercedes (15th), Audi (24th), and the most appalling reliability of all cars sold in Britain was German made BMW at 25th place.

So perceptions of being "high-end" are just an illusion? Maybe we're all just better off buying "cheap" as - in reality - it's better/more dependable?

http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/2017-uk-vehicle-dependability-study

Most dependable..... is sadly not reflected in sales figures though is it?

This is Q3 last year.

Marque Q1-3/2017 Q1-3/2016 % Change

Total 2,066,411 2,150,495 -4
1 Ford 234,180 254,220 -8
2 Volkswagen 165,376 163,020 1
3 Vauxhall 161,751 202,956 -20
4 Mercedes-Benz 146,342 136,892 7
5 Audi 138,535 138,411 0
6 BMW 137,793 138,656 -1
7 Nissan 127,391 119,836 6
8 Toyota 84,802 80,918 5
9 Kia 76,571 72,949 5
10 Hyundai 75,315 73,649 2

 

[cyclebuddy]

Most dependable..... is sadly not reflected in sales figures though is it?

And still people buy Kalkhoff e-bikes, despite all the known issues, believing the "German-made" superiority hype.

 

[EddiePJ]

And still people buy Kalkhoff e-bikes, despite all the known issues, believing the "German-made" superiority hype.

Perhaps they are.

Without knowing how many drive units are manufactured, claiming other wise is meaningless. For all we know, the failure rate might not even measure a quarter of one percent of overall drive units manufactured.

It certainly doesn't make the frustration felt by owners any less though.