Ebikes versus normal bikes for commuting

[eddieo]

Well there are 1000's of Bosch powered bikes on the road. Frames break on bikes all the time....this is the first broken frame that I have seen related on a forum here or in Germany

Do I always have to go through this with you every time the bike come up...

£45 shocks and an 8 speed £40 gear set just dont add up in a £1900 hub motor bike. If OP decides to get one all well and good, his choice... at least I have brought the poor value for money to his attention and will continue to when I see posts that read more like adverts popping up (not yours Garry) have a nice weekend

 

[GaRRy]

Well there are 1000's of Bosch powered bikes on the road. Frames break on bikes all the time....this is the first broken frame that I have seen related on a forum here or in Germany

Do I always have to go through this with you every time the bike come up...

£45 shocks and an 8 speed £40 gear set just dont add up in a £1900 hub motor bike. If OP decides to get one all well and good, his choice... at least I have brought the poor value for money to his attention and will continue to when I see posts that read more like adverts popping up (not yours Garry) have a nice weekend

And you just dont get it. With regards to the Haibike breaking your correct sh@t happens and that is not the reason for my criticism. Its the fact that they dont appear to give a damn about getting it fixed in a timely manner that bothers me (Especially as they are part of one of the largest bike groups in the world).

As for £45 shocks and £40 gear set. These are used on loads of manufacturers bikes and are the easy to replace bits when I feel like upgrading (although for my needs see no need to do so). Bit more expensive to upgrade the frame/motor etc so would rather see money spent there.

If you think NEO is expensive for spec would love to hear what you think of this (Note forks)
SCOTT E-Sporster 20 Solution 2013 :: £2599.00 :: ELECTRIC BIKES :: LEISURE / HYBRID :: Coventry Cycle Centre

 

[eddieo]

Scott like Cannondale (electric) not good value either....As for timely manner that story complicated and hardly a good example of anything. Personally I would rather but a bike direct from Germany in that case. I know from dealing with Germans for years buying our campers that service excellent...

 

[halfer]

On balance, I would prefer a bike with hub gears, as I expect to have to change at traffic lights. I suppose that moves me in the direction of crank systems...

I'd have previously agreed with that - certainly it is a benefit of hub gears that they can be changed when stationary. But my current Shimano Deore derailleur gears are super-smooth, and a real joy to use. If I see a stop is imminent, I push hard on the down-trigger, and this drops down two gears in one go, which is usually sufficient to permit an easy standstill start.

So, don't write off "ordinary" gears, especially if that would prohibit an otherwise great bike.

 

[GORDONAL]

I'd have previously agreed with that - certainly it is a benefit of hub gears that they can be changed when stationary. But my current Shimano Deore derailleur gears are super-smooth, and a real joy to use. If I see a stop is imminent, I push hard on the down-trigger, and this drops down two gears in one go, which is usually sufficient to permit an easy standstill start.

So, don't write off "ordinary" gears, especially if that would prohibit an otherwise great bike.

Totally agree with the above comment I have always had a dread of derailleurs (goes way back when bought 2 new bikes for£99) my last few and indeed the latest bike with Shimano SLX have changed my opinion . We also have Alfine 8 speed hub geared bike the SLX is more than adequate in that company , the SLX is by no means one of the more expensive derailleurs BUT i consider it very smooth with a modicum of care and mechanical sympathy.

Alan

 

[indalo]

I've tried high-end bikes by Wisper, Kalkhoff, AVE, Sparta, Koga, Haibike and Storck Raddar. I feel most comfortable on crank drives and the Impulse / Bosch drives seem to suit me well. I also liked the high-speed roll-off of the Agattu particularly.

Tough choice there Maloflora!

Most of those manufacturers provide at least one model I could live with quite happily, the exception for me being the grossly overpriced Storck bikes. For some considerable time, Eddie has trumpeted the merits of the Bosch-powered bikes. In my view, he's right to do so as they have elevated the electric bike to an unprecedented level of power, economy, light weight and reliability. With competition everywhere, the prices are now very affordable, (hardly budget bikes, I know!) and the German dealers are more than happy to provide quick, efficient supply to the UK in such cut-throat times.

The sheer range of manufacturers who have adopted the Bosch system and placed it in almost every style of bike imaginable speaks volumes about the confidence people in the industry have in the Bosch product. As I have previously intimated in these pages, I'm a big fan of traditionally-styled Dutch bikes. Equally, I like the Kalkhoff range from Germany but if there is one bike which really showcases the abilities of the Bosch-power system in a superb frame, lighter than most, it's the Haibike top-of-the-range, full-sus MTB. It's a better machine than the AVE attempt at a competitor and is way ahead of the Storck, no matter what the people in the north-east might want you to believe.

The Haibike really is "fit for purpose" but could be used for commuting quite comfortably. Your choice in the end will be determined by budget and style with value for money the constant consideration as always in major purchases. The bikes you have already tested are not exactly bargain-basement or budget-range machines so you should get a really nice, competent ebike whchever you choose at that end of the price spectrum.

Which one to choose at that end of the market is one of life's nicer problems, I'd say. Enjoy the difficulty!

Indalo

 

[RobF]

The Kalkhoff the OP is considering has a 15ah battery which must be a major selling point.

With the OP's 23mile commutes, a 10ah would need to be charged every day and it wouldn't be long in terms of months before degradation set in.

The 15ah wouldn't need charging so often and has a longer range anyway, so some degradation wouldn't matter.

We are talking central London, so lots of stops and starts.

What is the Kalkhoff like for pulling away?

Some people say crank drives have a delay or can be snatchy which is irritating when you are stopping and starting a lot.

A simple throttle control stands the bike up a treat and off you go.

 

[eddieo]

Bosch power there immediately as soon as you press the pedal."others" are not like this, needing one revolution of crank..it makes a hell of a difference

Plus now the option if you really think you need it of 11Ah battery.

I prefer XT gearing, you just need to change down quickly when stoping, no great shakes, and just like normal cycling

But if I was facing a long commute I would probably select a powerful hub motor bike with large battery. This one. http://www.wisperbikes.com/905sel-2011.php

It has a powerful dapush 350 watt motor and 16 ah battery to back it up, XT gearing, air shocks etc..etc.. Problem being finding one!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Every bike has advantages and disadvantages. The Neo's main advantage is it's hill-climbing ability. Naturally, if you use a lot of power to go up hills, the battery won't last as long. It's the same if you go faster: You need more energy for the same distance. If a bike uses up its battery quicker than another one, the main reason is that it's giving you more help. One exception is when you have an under-powered motor struggling up hills, which forces it into an inefficient zone. Bikes with a good range normally achieve it by giving you less help - even by giving you the impression that they're giving you more help than they are by clever algorithms in their power systems.

The gear-changing when stationary is more a problem on normal bikes and low-powered ebikes. The Neo has enough torque to pull away from a standstill in top gear, so it's not really a point of argument on this bike.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Every bike has advantages and disadvantages. The Neo's main advantage is it's hill-climbing ability. Naturally, if you use a lot of power to go up hills, the battery won't last as long. It's the same if you go faster: You need more energy for the same distance. If a bike uses up its battery quicker than another one, the main reason is that it's giving you more help. One exception is when you have an under-powered motor struggling up hills, which forces it into an inefficient zone. Bikes with a good range normally achieve it by giving you less help - even by giving you the impression that they're giving you more help than they are by clever algorithms in their power systems.

The gear-changing when stationary is more a problem on normal bikes and low-powered ebikes. The Neo has enough torque to pull away from a standstill in top gear, so it's not really a point of argument on this bike.

Dave,why do members think the BH Neo range climbs hills so well-it is after all limited down to 250 watts?
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It's not that I think it climbs well. I know it climbs well. I rode one up Park Street in Bristol. You used to stock these bikes. Didn't you ever have a go on one?

No ebikes that I know are limited to 250w - and that includes your entire range. The motor has to be rated at 250w, but that has no direct relationship to how much power it consumes/produces. As long as the manufacturer puts a 250w label on the motor, it's legal.

 

[RobF]

A bike I would consider were I spending a nice few quid on a commuter is a Moustache:

Moustache Bikes | Lundi 26 NUVINCI

Should do the job, a bit quirky and at least there won't be load of others at every traffic lights.

 

[halfer]

Maloflora, also consider whether bike weight is an issue for you. I've mentioned on another thread recently that I often have to pick up the bike to carry it up/down stairs at train stations - this is where excess weight can be a pain.

My old Juicy came in, with a D-lock attached, at 23.5kg - pretty much the top end of what I can carry, and I'm pretty fit and able (though not a gym bunny). My current Ave is 22kg with locks carried separately, and this can be lifted pretty much with one arm. However the Wisper 905SEL recommended earlier in this thread is 25-26kg, and their top-of-the-range Alpino is 26-27kg (depending on battery pack options).

 

[eddieo]

Yes the SEL heavy but a wonderful commuter cruiser and spec very high compared to other hub bikes being discussed here, and certainly not sporty. I would not have one as I don't commute, and prefer lighter more agile bikes (as also have to get them on camper rack)

The whole wisper range is being changed and reduced for 2013 (all bike to be built in Germany) So dont even know if any around....

 

[Kudoscycles]

It's not that I think it climbs well. I know it climbs well. I rode one up Park Street in Bristol. You used to stock these bikes. Didn't you ever have a go on one?

No ebikes that I know are limited to 250w - and that includes your entire range. The motor has to be rated at 250w, but that has no direct relationship to how much power it consumes/produces. As long as the manufacturer puts a 250w label on the motor, it's legal.

Dave,so many Daves on this forum-is it a criteria of riding an ebike you are named Dave?
Yeh I had lots of gos on the Neo range,it climbed hills better than any other hub drive bike I have ridden-I have my own opinions as to why this is so,but on this one would prefer to keep to myself.
My posting was very carefully worded to consider others opinions,quote'why do members think the BH Neo range climbs hills so well-it is after all limited down to 250 watts?
You,of course,explained your view in a succinct manner.
We stopped selling the BH range because it just did not sell at the rrp price,they were clearly fine bikes but most of our customers seemed not to want to pay the average £2k price,at average £1.5k they sold relatively well and good value. We also knew that on the horizon are some very fine bikes in development that have a considerably lower costing.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[Deleted member 4366]

OK, I get it. You want to say that your new range coming in January has the same motor as the Neo (only better as it's the CST version) and will have the same climbing power, but you don't want to be accused of spamming. You're too subtle for me. I look forward to trying your new bikes. I just got one of the CST motors with a 350w label on it, and it's very nice - smooth quiet and strong. I can build a really nice bike with this one and my new 20aH battery.

 

[jhruk]

I’m a bit confused here - perhaps someone can enlighten me. Does the BH Neo range use the BPM motor? I haven’t owned a BPM but understand it is a geared motor with a clutch. If this is true how does the regenerative braking, claimed for the Neo in some places, work? Do some models have direct drive motors, if so which ones?

 

[maloflora]

Gosh lots of useful advice - thanks all!

Anyway I tested the BH Neo Cross and I loved it. First electric bike that really made me smile as it pulled away. I know eddie won't be happy with me, and I agree the components are a bit sub-par (or non-existent), but I know what Garry means about the different between the Kalkhoff and the BH - one's safe but steady, but the other felt like fun.

Nice and light, too, halfer. Comparatively at least!

Two concerns I still have about the Neo:

• Battery life: is 25 miles going to be ok on a charge?
• Noise: I heard a small whine at times - is this normal?

M

 

[flecc]

Dave,so many Daves on this forum-is it a criteria of riding an ebike you are named Dave?

Dave
Kudoscycles

No, it's just the age of the Dave, even the Prime Minister is a Dave. Recently I actually had someone who knows me absent mindedly say "Hello Dave" when I picked up the phone to answer his call. That's how bad it's got!

If Prince Charles wants to increase his popularity before coming to the throne, he knows what to do.

 

[halfer]

Two concerns I still have about the Neo:

• Battery life: is 25 miles going to be ok on a charge?
• Noise: I heard a small whine at times - is this normal?

M

On the 9Ah battery, yes, especially if you're mainly on the flat. I'm guessing I'd get 20 miles out of my 8Ah Bosch system on high power settings, with a couple of hills. Although you've said you'd like to use full power, I do recommend using a mid-range setting if you can - it'll be a good mix of exercise and assistance, and you'll easily get the range you want.

I noticed a substantial purr when testing the Neo Cross - I think this is normal, and wouldn't in itself put me off buying one. You're right it does have a bit more zip than comparable bikes!