ebikes on a roll

[eddieo]

Yes the laws of diminishing returns...thats life! You pays for whats you gets.....

And I am willing to PAY for a reduced weight e bike? Because i want an ebike close to as normal a bike as possible, in regards to handling and performance. You can stick your heavy moped like e bikes as they are dreadful IMO

my specialised crosstral ltd disc, with DaaHub kit weighs under 20kg and it is a joy....

 

[flecc]

flecc please stick to the ebike debate.....you obviously know nothing about high powered saab's.......

Very much an owner's hurt pride, I know a lot more than you think. When GM took over, the SAAB models introduced were based on the Carlton and earlier Cavalier floorpans. For anyone not appreciating what that means, a floorpan in the industry is the whole base less body, engines and wheels. At that time GMs Vauxhall/Opel engines went into one model, the other using the SAAB four cylinder.

As for GM taking technology from SAAB, you have to be joking.

 

[dmcgoldrick]

Yes, but they are never going to be used as ebikes. There are two curves on the bike/cost graph, the initial curve is for quality vs cost, then the second steeper curve takes over which is weight vs cost. Most ebikes are at the lower end of the first curve. None make it to the second because the weight of the motor and battery make it pointless, plus I wouldn't fancy your chances of surviving a year on a carbon frame with all that extra ebike weight if you start to do some semi-serious off roading. So you need to focus on the first curve and look at the quality of the parts you get before you start paying premiums for reduction in their weight. At this price point, as I've already pointed out, you can get some quality MTB kit for £500. Anything over £1K and your money is being spent almost exclusively on reducing weight.

hi,have to agree that overweight person wanting to do a bit of shopping has no need to look further than your conclusion......500 pound mtb on scottish black run (if one can get it to the top !) broken before black run completed......fairly fit guy over 50 wanting to daily commute will certainly appreciate dropping 10kg off the bike weight....its all horses for courses. there are already full sus electric bikes on the market by the way for well over 2 grand........so your opening remark is wrong........
regards

 

[indalo]

It must be nice to be an electric bike dealer in this country right now with all the over inflated prices and woffle keeping prices high.bring on the elctric bike revolution thats what i say.

Some of your points find agreement with me Froggy. All along, since I got into the ebike culture, I've been given to understand that there's not much of a living to be had from selling ebikes. Ok, I bought into the notion that we should be grateful to those few dealers and suppliers who do us the favour of supplying ebikes on very tight margins. Incredibly, over recent months, there has been something of a proliferation of new suppliers so either those margins are greater than I thought or lots of entrepreneurial types are taking extreme risks to give us the broad choice of bikes now available.

The 3 grand bikes are lost on me too. Most of my cars didn't cost that much! While I believe to some extent, as with most things in life, you get what you pay for, I can't quite grasp how a 3 grand bike can be 2 grand better than a £1000 Juicybike or Kudos machine, (just by way of examples.) Methinks there's a bit of the brand snobbery we witness in the car market at work here. You know...if it's German, comes in the de rigueur silver, then it must be the best and I need to have one or my neighbours and workmates will laugh. Some hype, a dose of marketing sorcery and creative accounting and there you have it....another German winner!

It's probably me though who just doesn't understand but the song lyric, "Oh, the king is in the altogether, the altogether....." keeps coming into my mind.

Indalo

 

[Deleted member 4366]

And I am willing to PAY for a reduced weight e bike? Because i want an ebike close to as normal a bike as possible, in regards to handling and performance...

Seeing as you're willing to pay. I can make your bike even more like a normal bike for another £500. Just send me the bike and the £500 and I'll remove the Daahub kit and put it on mine and then your bike will be so much like a normal bike that you won't be able to tell the difference. I guarantee it.

 

[dmcgoldrick]

flecc, to end this silly exchange......production of the high end saab models did not leave sweden.....please dont make this a personal attack re
'owners hurt pride'.... what nonsense.... enjoy your choice of car and leave it at that......stick to the ebike debate please... i am sure yours will be better than mine....for half the cost.....
regards

 

[indalo]

Anyway, modern SAABs are just modified Vauxhalls to varying degrees.

The last Saab I thought was any good was a two-stroke and it did rather well in the world of rallying. If I'm not mistaken, it incorporated a freewheel device of some kind but I can't remember the detail. Am I right or have I got myself mixed up?

Indalo

 

[flecc]

.....production of the high end saab models did not leave sweden.......

I agree, as far as I know no production moved from SAAB in the GM days, the Cavalier production tooling was shipped to SAAB for the production of one of the models I mentioned.

And I certainly wouldn't pretend a £14k Suzuki is better than a far more expensive SAAB, especially the three litre. That would be foolish. I just said you could be surprised with that Suzuki model mentioned, the Vauxhall mention drawing attention to the law of diminishing returns that applies to the more expensive cars, as it does to e-bikes where low cost stuff is also often incorporated. However, the surprise was mine at your reaction. My fault though, on reflection I should have used a smiley emoticon in that first post.
.

 

[flecc]

The last Saab I thought was any good was a two-stroke and it did rather well in the world of rallying. If I'm not mistaken, it incorporated a freewheel device of some kind but I can't remember the detail. Am I right or have I got myself mixed up?

Indalo

That's absolutely right, driven by the great Erik Carlsson it scored many victories, his skill making up for that SAAB model 96's lack of power. Erik's other claim to fame was marrying Pat Moss, Stirling Moss's younger sister.
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[Kudoscycles]

Indalo,
The proliferation of entrepreneurs trying to break into the e-bike market is not about current e-bike sales in the UK,everyone is looking to the future but we don't seem to be going down the German system of a new bike every 3 years with £1500 loss,there you are almost forced to buy a new bike as soon as your battery is finished. Here we seem to want a new bike to cost less than £1000 and replacement batteries to be reasonably priced,I am intrigued to know what do high end UK e-bike purchasers do when their £700 battery is kaput! Must be honest it will be difficult for UK e-bike suppliers to break into the German market,the bike shops are resistant to bikes costing less than euro 2300,similarly the German manufacturers would find it difficult to break into the UK market because of their high prices. As yet a bike version of VW does not seem to have evolved out of Germany nor a Toyota out of Asia.
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[flecc]

I am intrigued to know what do high end UK e-bike purchasers do when their £700 battery is kaput!

As well as the three batteries already in the e-bikes I've owned in the last 8 years, I've spent £1100 on five replacement batteries at between 2003 and 2010 prices. In addition, I've used to end of life two free batteries, one a warranty replacement and one on testing for whole life for an Asian manufacturer.

So that's ten batteries in all, four NiMh and six Lithium. The total full retail price of all those ten batteries would have been £2350 at contemporaneous prices.

Who still thinks petrol use in cars is expensive! That money would have bought enough petrol at contemporaneous prices for about 17,600 miles in cars at 30 mpg, which is a few more miles than I rode on the bikes in that time.
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[cwah]

My understand is that battery is considered Kaput when the full charge is lower than 80% of its initial capacity. But I suppose that even when it's lower than 80% the bike can still be used? (but with lower range).
I suppose that's why phone users have their phone for many years?

 

[indalo]

As yet a bike version of VW does not seem to have evolved out of Germany nor a Toyota out of Asia.
Dave
KudosCycles

I like your analogy Dave but it does raise questions with me about the German psyche when it comes to bikes. Not all Germans can aspire to Mercs, Beemers and Audis when it comes to cars, some having to make do with more mundane, mainstream wheels so I can't quite grasp their ebike market with so many high-end machines. I know that many Germans do ride lesser machines so isn't it just their massive Deutsche hype factory dictating what Germans all must have or risk being thought as out of date fools using old technology?

Regardless, these are great times for those interested in ebikes. The choice is fantastic!

Indalo

 

[flecc]

My understand is that battery is considered Kaput when the full charge is lower than 80% of its initial capacity. But I suppose that even when it's lower than 80% the bike can still be used? (but with lower range).

Or when the voltage drop under load causes the battery safety cutout to operate. On the most powerful bikes that can be the decider. On bikes with good battery management software like the Panasonic unit equipped ones, the batteries can be used down to very low remaining capacities with very short ranges.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Cwah....for a 36v x 10Ah battery..the graph in usage of a Lithium Ion or Lithium Manganese battery is steadily falling voltage...in most cases at about 30-40 kms the voltage falls to a level where performance is reduced. the same graph for Lithium Phosphate battery is almost a straight line up to 50 kms and performance is maintained up to that range but then the voltage falls suddenly. The Li-Ion battery is good for about 500-800 cycles,according to care...it degenerates to the point that the charge will only hold good for say 15-20 kms and obviously is no longer acceptable. The Lithium Phosphate battery should be good for 1500 cycles but I must say I don't know what will be the result when failure starts....will it reduce the starting voltage or the range at that point?,to be honest I don't know but that could be 5 years away and with a replacement battery about £200,I think most customers will feel they have had their moneys worth.
These Lithium Phosphate batteries have been extensively used in weather stations,20 years use is not unusual.
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[cwah]

Or when the voltage drop under load causes the battery safety cutout to operate. On the most powerful bikes that can be the decider. On bikes with good battery management software like the Panasonic unit equipped ones, the batteries can be used down to very low remaining capacities with very short ranges.

Thanks for the precision. But my point is that now with the Lifepo4 battery with 2000 lifecycle. We should be able to use them much longer? And I suppose 2000 lifecycle is to go below 80%, there are additional usage time for these bike.

BTW, why does some seller show 1000 lifecycle for Lifepo4 battery and other 2000? Is there difference between lifepo4?

 

[cwah]

Cwah....for a 36v x 10Ah battery..the graph in usage of a Lithium Ion or Lithium Manganese battery is steadily falling voltage...in most cases at about 30-40 kms the voltage falls to a level where performance is reduced. the same graph for Lithium Phosphate battery is almost a straight line up to 50 kms and performance is maintained up to that range but then the voltage falls suddenly. The Li-Ion battery is good for about 500-800 cycles,according to care...it degenerates to the point that the charge will only hold good for say 15-20 kms and obviously is no longer acceptable. The Lithium Phosphate battery should be good for 1500 cycles but I must say I don't know what will be the result when failure starts....will it reduce the starting voltage or the range at that point?,to be honest I don't know but that could be 5 years away and with a replacement battery about £200,I think most customers will feel they have had their moneys worth.
These Lithium Phosphate batteries have been extensively used in weather stations,20 years use is not unusual.
Dave
KudosCycles

Dave, do you mean it was an error to have a LiMnO2 battery because it may fail later?
And if a battery can be used for 20 years, why should we worried about it being kaput or why does Flecc need to change up to 6 lithium battery?


ps: Btw, why do you both write the complete chemical name? Isn't that faster to write Lifepo4 or LimnO2?

 

[flecc]

BTW, why does some seller show 1000 lifecycle for Lifepo4 battery and other 2000? Is there difference between lifepo4?

It's about the current usage rate in relation to the battery capacity. The harder a battery is worked in delivering current, the shorter it's life, and this is true for all lithium types. One supplier, Li Ping, has quoted between 1000 and 3000 charge cycles for the same batteries, depending on the discharge rate.

For example, a powerful motor fully used with a 5 Ah battery will lead to short battery life.

A moderate power motor used gently with a 15 Ah battery will result in long battery life.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Cwah...all batteries have advantages and disadvantages....the Lithium Polymer,Lithium Ion and Lithium Manganese all have relatively high energy densities ie they hold max charge for min weight...the Lithium Phosphate(LifePo4) has a lower energy density,longer life and lower replacement costs.....I suppose you pays your money for what you wish to achieve.
It is unlikely a LifePo4 battery would last as long on an e-bike as in the more stable environment and controlled conditions of a weather station so 20 years is unlikely but who knows?
Dave
KudosCycles

 

[flecc]

4

Btw, why do you both write the complete chemical name? Isn't that faster to write Lifepo4 or LimnO2?

Strictly speaking, a chemical formula should be written correctly, your LiFepo4 should be LiFePO4 and the small 4 really should be raised, not possible in here and not faster either with the font size change for the 4. Also, many people won't understand the formula so just typing the name, lithium iron phosphate is just as convenient.

In addition, some cathodes have many constituents* and their formula very long, so compound cathode lithium is easier to type.

* Here's one type for example:

Lithium-ion nickel manganese cobalt complex oxide powder polymer

and some even add chromium to that mix, so the formula can get very complex.