Ebike battery fire
- Thread starter guerney
- Start date
Well, you might be armed, but it seems you don't have a leg to stand on
You are definitely right. The warranty direct site did highly accurate reliability ratings of car brands based on actual failure rates on the cars they warranted. Pretty much all German stuff is at the bottom as unreliable junk really. Back in the 90s there were some quite reliable German cars but nowadays it's awful. Japanese cars have maintained their reliability rating over the years but German brands have not. It applies to a lot of German engineered products not just cars. The sort of people who buy German cars often can't even drive them correctly, they don't indicate the overtake in dangerous places. German branding seems like a magnet for idiots nowadays. Huge depreciation too when you factor in many people pay huge amounts for options on German cars. I remember a work colleague years ago complaining of her new BMW with tons of quality issues and how disappointed she was with it. She actually re-mortgaged her home to provide money to buy the car if I remember rightly to save on interest payments.Oh dear, I wish you could understand nuance. I am NOT saying German engineering is terrible, my point is that you can't say it is the be all and end all and it is certainly not as good as it was decades ago, when it really was something. Yet, there is still this myth that the gullible are all too ready to believe that just because something has "German engineering" written on the side that it will be the best of the best.
As for Fesstool, wouldn't buy them, just look at the reviews:
festool.com is rated "Poor" with 2.3 / 5 on Trustpilot
Do you agree with festool.com's TrustScore? Voice your opinion today and hear what 41 customers have already said.www.trustpilot.com
It's like anything though there is good and bad products from any country but Germany has so much overpriced junk nowadays which many Germans freely admit. I've known Germans who would never buy a German car they always have reliable Japanese models.
I've worked in product compliance for power tools and have seen many German brands featured in the certification for Chinese power tools. They are just one of the brands that cosmetically restyle a Chinese product and are featured in the shared certification. However look at the marketing for that product and its all about German engineering for what is actually a Chinese designed and manufactured product. It's just marketing spiel. In case you haven't worked out the brand its 'Bosch' however I still have a power drill from the 80s which is Bosch branded and made in Sweden and still working well. A year or so back I read of a modern Bosch drill burning out on first use on a forum (hotukdeals) which was a similar spec to mine, likely Chinese components assembled in Europe or made fully in China.
Manufacturer Ratings - Car Reliability Index | Reliability Index | How reliable is your car?
Based on data gathered from millions of pounds worth of claims handled by Warranty Direct every year, the Reliability Index brings you the most comprehensive overview of cars on the road today.
web.archive.org
German cars 'among worst for engine failures' | Auto Express
Audi, BMW and VW ranked in the bottom 10 of a study into engine reliability
www.autoexpress.co.uk
Lastly its important to point out a lot of German brands simply repackage Asian products and sell them as made in Germany in what is the 'last significant process' under EU legislation. I.e. just boxing and throwing in a instruction book. The EU started looking into this and was talking about banning it but never did as far as I know;
German Products May No Longer Be 'Made In Germany'
www.businessinsider.com
I'm happy with my Korean car which I have had from new for almost 10 years and have done absolutely nothing to it. Not a single fault so far.
I think that's a very good assessment.You are definitely right. The warranty direct site did highly accurate reliability ratings of car brands based on actual failure rates on the cars they warranted. Pretty much all German stuff is at the bottom as unreliable junk really. Back in the 90s there were some quite reliable German cars but nowadays it's awful. Japanese cars have maintained their reliability rating over the years but German brands have not. It applies to a lot of German engineered products not just cars. The sort of people who buy German cars often can't even drive them correctly, they don't indicate the overtake in dangerous places. German branding seems like a magnet for idiots nowadays. Huge depreciation too when you factor in many people pay huge amounts for options on German cars. I remember a work colleague years ago complaining of her new BMW with tons of quality issues and how disappointed she was with it. She actually re-mortgaged her home to provide money to buy the car if I remember rightly to save on interest payments.
It's like anything though there is good and bad products from any country but Germany has so much overpriced junk nowadays which many Germans freely admit. I've known Germans who would never buy a German car they always have reliable Japanese models.
I've worked in product compliance for power tools and have seen many German brands featured in the certification for Chinese power tools. They are just one of the brands that cosmetically restyle a Chinese product and are featured in the shared certification. However look at the marketing for that product and its all about German engineering for what is actually a Chinese designed and manufactured product. It's just marketing spiel. In case you haven't worked out the brand its 'Bosch' however I still have a power drill from the 80s which is Bosch branded and made in Sweden and still working well. A year or so back I read of a modern Bosch drill burning out on first use on a forum (hotukdeals) which was a similar spec to mine, likely Chinese components assembled in Europe or made fully in China.
Manufacturer Ratings - Car Reliability Index | Reliability Index | How reliable is your car?
Based on data gathered from millions of pounds worth of claims handled by Warranty Direct every year, the Reliability Index brings you the most comprehensive overview of cars on the road today.
German cars 'among worst for engine failures' | Auto Express
Audi, BMW and VW ranked in the bottom 10 of a study into engine reliability
Lastly its important to point out a lot of German brands simply repackage Asian products and sell them as made in Germany in what is the 'last significant process' under EU legislation. I.e. just boxing and throwing in a instruction book. The EU started looking into this and was talking about banning it but never did as far as I know;
German Products May No Longer Be 'Made In Germany'
I'm happy with my Korean car which I have had from new for almost 10 years and have done absolutely nothing to it. Not a single fault so far.
So that means everything made in Germany is tat, according to the report on car engines ?.
Festool are one of the industry leaders, and their tools are considered in the industry as the measure by which others are judged. Which has ZERO to do with the car industry.
Then we have Bosch of course. Makers of professional powertools ,white goods and other domestic appliances as well as Ebike motors. Industrial generators etc etc.
Currently Bosch Ebike motors have a very strong reputation, which again has ZERO to do with car engines.
Or how about Mafell ?,another company famed for its very high quality professional carpentry tools. And oh look, again they're made in Germany.
And again nothing, absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with car engines.
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There you go again, black or white, no sense of nuance. It's either all wonderful or total crap, no in between according to you. I've got plenty of items of various kinds that are "made in Germany" and they are good or at least work adequately, but just because it says "made in Germany" on the label: i) I do not believe it necessarily has been made in Germany and ii) I do not blindly believe it will be more reliable and better than items made elsewhere. You have to use your judgement and listen to the experiences of others before you buy. Also, even if it is good, can I reasonably justify the extra cost compared to alternatives?
You need to get away from your simplistic line of reasoning. I'm sure it helps you justify your overly expensive decisions, it perhaps helps you feel superior to other people to make up for some personal inadequacies, but it's not very helpful to people on this forum.
As for Bosch, I've not had much joy with them in recent years, whether it's power tools, car parts or white goods, I have been disappointed. You say they have a good record with e-motors, but do you have any statistics? Show me some data. You accuse me of comparing apples and oranges, talking about cars etc not bikes, but then you do the same with carpentry tools. So, come on, show me some Bosch e-bike motor data and also, how much of it is actually made in Germany?
But, even if the motors are 100% wonderful, you are then tied in to the expensive Bosch proprietary architecture and design philosophy. This means it's the control systems, batteries, etc. All it needs is one weak link in the chain and you are stuck. Then they seem to like to build in obsolescence or design in failure points, forcing you to buy again before you should have to.
You also haven't explained what someone should do if they, like I did recently, have a drivetrain failure - in my case a mech hanger breaking. Luckily I had a hub drive and was able to get home. What would you have done with your mid drive?
You need to get away from your simplistic line of reasoning. I'm sure it helps you justify your overly expensive decisions, it perhaps helps you feel superior to other people to make up for some personal inadequacies, but it's not very helpful to people on this forum.
As for Bosch, I've not had much joy with them in recent years, whether it's power tools, car parts or white goods, I have been disappointed. You say they have a good record with e-motors, but do you have any statistics? Show me some data. You accuse me of comparing apples and oranges, talking about cars etc not bikes, but then you do the same with carpentry tools. So, come on, show me some Bosch e-bike motor data and also, how much of it is actually made in Germany?
But, even if the motors are 100% wonderful, you are then tied in to the expensive Bosch proprietary architecture and design philosophy. This means it's the control systems, batteries, etc. All it needs is one weak link in the chain and you are stuck. Then they seem to like to build in obsolescence or design in failure points, forcing you to buy again before you should have to.
You also haven't explained what someone should do if they, like I did recently, have a drivetrain failure - in my case a mech hanger breaking. Luckily I had a hub drive and was able to get home. What would you have done with your mid drive?
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I personally don't think Bosch have a strong reputation for ebike motors. Despite featuring on high cost niche ebikes they seem to make up a significant number of issues on forums for ebikes. The average price of a bike sold in the UK including ebikes is only about £400 this doesn't allow for many £4-12k ebikes. When you look at ebay auctions there is always a significant amount of Bosch used ebike motor parts for sale and a high turnover of Bosch based ebikes on the secondhand market yet statistically its a niche product. Despite hub based ebikes dominating sales worldwide they seem to just work. If hub motors and mid-drive motors are equally reliable we should see 50 hub motor reliability issues in forums for every 1 mid-drive motor fault mentioned and perhaps 200 hub motor faults for every 1 Bosch mid-drive motor fault mentioned. The other German brand Brose certainly don't have a strong reputation for reliability they are terrible with a high failure rate, I don't think they sell anywhere near as well as Bosch and yet in the mountain bike forums there has been huge complaints about them. At the end of the day these are small motors run at high rpm with complex gearing and integral controllers all in a tiny unit. It is very complex engineering more so than hub motors which are larger and cruder.
I've seen many people complain about the worsening quality of Miele products which are very expensive, extremely expensive to repair but with reduced quality compared to a few decades ago. I think many German brands sell themselves on quality of the past that they no longer have.
Festool aren't a industry leader they are niche high cost power tool manufacturer. They are selling a premium product. You don't normally describe low volume niche products as industry leaders. They may have a high quality reputation but their pricing keeps them out of high volume sales. I've never seen a professional tradesman with a festool product personally. It's always Makita or Dewalt around here. I think Bosch Pro power tools are far more significant in the market place as a German brand I'm pretty sure I have seen professional tradesman using those in the past. I've used a Festool cordless power drill in the past but personally felt the price was ridiculous for the product. It was part of my job I used to write power tool manuals and examined many of the competitors products at times. I personally was not impressed by Festool because of its uncompetitive pricing and over stylished design. Despite its pricing its performance was only mid-range. However I'll admit I had no information on its long term reliability but it didn't look like it would last any longer than a Makita for example. I remember seeing a Makita drill a tradesman had and he had almost worn the plastic through he had been using it so long. It looked awful but was still working enough for his job.
It just makes me think Japanese engineering is probably the best in the world but that in no way makes me think all Japanese products are well engineered. That would be a stupid assumption to make but I do feel you have a much better chance of getting a well engineered product if its Japanese. I've seen British, Spanish, Italian, Korean products which are much better engineered than some German products but again that is only on occasion. You take products on a one by one basis.
Quality and standards are not the same thing. You have quality when something does everything you want it to for the time you expect it to. Standard is the level you want it to work at. Products with high standards can have low quality and products with low standard can have high quality.
Where the Japanese stand out is that back in the 70s, they started studying variation in their processes and products. After some time, they were able to reduce the variation so that every product came out the same without defects. By the late 80s, Ford Motor Co. Figured out what they had done and started copying them. During the early 90s, those ideas started to spread through the rest of the car industry with the German ones lagging behind. From there, some other industries picked up the techniques, but not enough of them, sadly.
Where the Japanese stand out is that back in the 70s, they started studying variation in their processes and products. After some time, they were able to reduce the variation so that every product came out the same without defects. By the late 80s, Ford Motor Co. Figured out what they had done and started copying them. During the early 90s, those ideas started to spread through the rest of the car industry with the German ones lagging behind. From there, some other industries picked up the techniques, but not enough of them, sadly.
Mazda gave their cars superior long term reliability simply by avoiding turbo's on most of their engines. They went for high compression petrol engines which mimic some of the engineering of diesel engines to create a much more reliable long term product. To many that makes Mazda's inferior to many German cars which feature Turbo's which have a high failure rate in later years and huge repair bills. Toyota too tend to focus on long term reliability. I just prefer the Japanese approach of engineering that lasts over gimmicks which often fail and cost owners huge amounts of money. The Japanese don't always get it right but they get it more right than anyone else. There is a charm to simpler engineering in my opinion. I look at some people who ride bikes 40-50 years old on mostly the original parts and feel that is the what we need to be like into the future. Hating the idea of replacing something is the way to go.
This is an Ebike forum(The gollum of ebikes forums it seems) and yet nobody is coming here asking about their broken or not working Bosch motor.
They all seem to be asking for advise on their '£400' Chinese import hub motor'd bike.
" When you look at ebay auctions there is always a significant amount of Bosch used ebike motor parts for sale"
No there isn't.
I've been selling on Ebay for the last 15 years, and when it comes to bits of bike motors the majority has always been from broken hub motors. I used to marvel at how many bits there were.
Now Im not saying Bosch or any hub motor is perfect, and in any line of anything there will be failures, but none of that is indicative of anything.
Currently there are two.
" I've never seen a professional tradesman with a festool product personally. "
I have, and on another forum they're rated very highly. But then I am a qualified cabinetmaker.
Most of the people i have worked with int he past use Festool. And yes I've bosch and makita too. Bosch are good because one of the things, in fact pretty much the only thing they do is electrical motors and batteries. In that aspect they appear to probably be the best choice for an Ebike set up.
" It was part of my job I used to write power tool manuals and examined many of the competitors products at times. I personally was not impressed by Festool because of its noncompetitive pricing and over stylished design "
So in point of fact you didnt actually use these tools in your day job. You wrote some manuals ?? How doses that qualify you for anything other that to professionally judge ink quality or type font ??.
Stylized ? Im not sure what exactly you mean there. In fact I dont think you do either.
Festool are excellent in their design( I qualified in design) their use of colour to represent the parts of a machine to differentiate between static use and whats adjustable is excellent. On a Festool machine if its adjustable, its green. James Dyson uses the same method on his machines, colour coding the parts a user can access for cleaning and maintenance.
I'm intrigued. Which mech hanger specifically and why did it break? I'm still using the same Dahon mech hanger installed by the bike factory in April 2006.
I don't know about @AndyBike, but I'd simply fold my bike into a taxi, bus or train.
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Yes indeed. The Japanese measuring instrument manufacturer Mitutoyo introduced the concept of Statictical Process Control to the UK in the mid-80's. I worked for a large UK tool distributor at the time and I remember trying to interest the head of metrology and inspection at the UK factory of Cincinnati Machine Tools.
His verdict was "If you produce one cr@p item it ensures that all the other items in the production run are equally cr@p"!
Strictly speaking he was absolutely right, but he ignored the obvious alternative that if you get one within specification, they all will be.
It was a typical "not invented here" attitude that started the demise of UK manufacturing long before the Chinese finished it off. Needless to say, the he was made redundant along with everyone else, and the site is now houses.
There are two reasons for that:
1. Different sales model. people buy expensive ebikes from expensive shops. When the bike goes wrong, they take it back to the shop to get it fixed. People who buy their cheap ebikes on Amazon or Ebay have nowhere to go, so they have to come to forums to get help.
2. There's very little that a forum can help with when a Bosch bike goes wrong.
When I visited a well-known multi-brand high end ebike shop in Yorkshire (not Oxygen bikes) a few years ago, the defunkt Bosch motors were piled high. The owner told me that he had many angry customers because of the timescales involved to get repacement motors. They were mainly Bosch CX motors taken out of expensive MTB type bikes that had water ingress. We heard very little of that on this forum, though there was much more on other forums.
As another anecdote, some years ago, we had a forum member boasting about how great his Bosch bike was and how it had been faultless; however, what he didn't know was that I had inside information about his bike and its problems. I called him out, which must have been embarassing for him. I don't know whether it's some sort of dissonance, but I've noticed many times that when people pay a lot forsomething, especially over when they pay over the odds, they tend to try and hide any problems that occur.
Hi @WheezyRider - I have had a rear mech fail on a long cycle camping tour somewhere in the Portuguese outback - I'm still not sure how or why it happened but the chain jammed in the RM and it was bent out of shape and rather than risk breaking the rear hanger, I took it off.
This left me with a long chain which I shortened using a chain breaking tool with the chain running off the middle sprocket and middle chain ring which was enough to get me to a town with an LBS and a new rear mech and chain
Oh, and I noticed back in post 100 that you said
I was really suprised to read of your experience with a mid drive - I have a TSDZ2 on two bikes and to me they feel very natural to such an extent that I forget that I'm powered by the motor at all until I turn the assist level down or off. If you live anywhere near the Portsmouth area, I'd be pleased to let you have a test ride as I really cannot fathom out why the ride you'd had felt unnatural - was it one of those BBSxx jobbies by any chance?
PS - One of the guys in my local cycling group had to buy another Bosch battery for his Active Line mid drive - £550 it was. He knew I built my own batteries and casually asked me how much my battery cost - when I told him around £80 he went very quiet.
I don't give a fig if the Bosch stuff is more reliable than my Chinese stuff (and I've no complaints so far), as I know that I can if I so wish, rebuild/program just about every part in my ebike system without visiting a mortgage broker or LBS - but each to their own and to be fair, a lot of my local cycle group members have Bosch ebikes and are happy enough (but then I'd never admit to disappointment if I'd spent several £k's on a bike
).
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I almost sent my BBS01B back for a refund, bloody awful it was... until all the firmware tweaks. Maintaning a high cadence is important, which is easy for cyclists with weak legs to do, if they use an a low gear. I don't see that there are similar power envelope settings in Toseven's mid motor display interface, unless other Bafang configurator-esque options are presented, after it's torque sensor has been switched off.
Nissan employ a lot of mathematicians, specialising in Operations Research, specifically Stochastic Processes. There were oodles of them in Sunderland eating noodles. My mate was one of them, hated noodles.Yes indeed. The Japanese measuring instrument manufacturer Mitutoyo introduced the concept of Statictical Process Control to the UK in the mid-80's. I worked for a large UK tool distributor at the time and I remember trying to interest the head of metrology and inspection at the UK factory of Cincinnati Machine Tools.
His verdict was "If you produce one cr@p item it ensures that all the other items in the production run are equally cr@p"!
Strictly speaking he was absolutely right, but he ignored the obvious alternative that if you get one within specification, they all will be.
It was a typical "not invented here" attitude that started the demise of UK manufacturing long before the Chinese finished it off. Needless to say, the he was made redundant along with everyone else, and the site is now houses.
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I don't think that the Japanese technology is definitely better or more innovative; rather the attributes are targeted differently.
Their main (really important) innovation seems to have been the breakthrough concept around the 80's that a car might be reliable. It never seemed to occur to the UK and US mass market manufacturers to think that there might be such a thing as a reliable car; and reality of the cars of those times reinforced the though it was impossible.
Their main (really important) innovation seems to have been the breakthrough concept around the 80's that a car might be reliable. It never seemed to occur to the UK and US mass market manufacturers to think that there might be such a thing as a reliable car; and reality of the cars of those times reinforced the though it was impossible.
An acquired taste for sure lol. Delicious too, if you try to acquire the taste really really really hard. Reminds me, must ferment some more.Just think how lucky he was not to be made to eat Nato
" His diet is also designed to keep him fighting fit, consisting mostly of fish, vegetables, miso soup, seaweed and natto, a fermented soybean dish. "
Works with other beans too. I've worked out how to make natto "The World's Most Disgusting Food" in batches weighing about 2.5kg using a yoghurtmaker. It gets all stringy the moment the beans are moved. Easy to digest. Not at all gusty.
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