E-mopeds,e-scooters,legality?

[shemozzle999]

Until the law is clearly defined and put into place and the police given the freedom to prosecute then discussions are pointless.

I recently posted a thread on a 350W kit the seller at least described the item accurately giving the buyers the opportunity of the knowledge of what they where buying and if they want to operate it illegally then that is their decision.

Sellers will always sell if there is a buyer demand but have they got the balls to accurately describe what they are selling?

 

[trex]

Shambolic,that bike is imported into Europe by Sachs.
I know the bike well,I spent 2hours at the Shanghai cycle show discussing with the manufacturer how we could make it bicycle legal
...
Kudosdave

They would be more successful if someone puts in some money to get them properly type approved.
I test rode one of those with two seater saddle a couple of years ago, it had 48V SLA and 800W motor with provision for number plate and weighs about 50kgs. The advantage of these bikes is the comfort - big seat, foot rest, hydraulic brakes, full suspension and of course the big bike look, all for a ridiculously low price in comparison to a similarly looking ICE motobike. The maximum speed was around 20mph and was capable of climbing 10% hills. With a bit of work on the electrics, you could get 30mph top speed and 40 mile range, they would be ideal for congested London.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Shemozzle...I agree with you,it's more a trading standards issue,are these sellers accurately describing what they are selling?
I looked up the e-bay site that shamholic's bike came from,the feedback suggests about 5 sales per month. On this forum we are very knowledgeable about matters of illegality but a kid could have one bought for his 14th birthday and the kid and parents not realising they have bought an illegal bike.
Trex....for once we agree on something. I just cannot understand why these importers just don't do the job properly,get type approval as e-mopeds and everything is legal,the cost of registering and running the bike must be very small. They could only be ridden by adults,which would be good,and only on the public highway-in any event if you tried riding one down a cycle track or seafront the pedestrians would soon let their feelings known,going by the abuse that legal cyclists get on our local seafront.
I agree that they would be ideal,if legal,for use in London.
I actually found the website of the scooter that the guy in my OP said he bought as a bicycle,I will post it later today.
KudosDave

 

[JohnCade]

It is a 'grey' area, which the police having looked at a decade or so ago and found unrewarding tend to leave alone.

As has been written here before, a user of one of these bikes is likely to ride it without problems unless involved in a police attended accident. Then he might find himself up shitcreek if they really looked into it.

The other event which is bound to happen at some time and could cause publicity and bring things to a head is a 14 year old kid being killed riding an illegal bike like these which his respectable parents bought him thinking it was legal.

Fourteen year olds are killed all the time riding stolen and none registered motor bikes in some parts of towns of course.

 

[shambolic]

In that case once again, the Law is an Ass. I can ride a class 3 mobility Scooter, which is far heavier far more unwieldy, on road and pavement . On the road I can go only 8mph which quite frankly is Dangerous. Try getting across a busy junction at that for max speed along with the pathetic torque these rip off machines have. With The Bike I use mostly the bike lanes where I live nobody objects, many people have stopped and asked me about the bike and feel they have had a glimpse of the future. I can take my Dogs out in the country park next door (it is full of Bike paths). The local police pass me on their bikes occasionally and say hi. A mobility scooter couldn't possibly handle the surface on those fields the Bike can...so woop de doo back to the sofa

 

[flecc]

It is a 'grey' area, which the police having looked at a decade or so ago and found unrewarding tend to leave alone.

One thing that helps to cause confusion for the police and others is the existence of the "Low Powered Moped" class. This is for pedal assisted two wheelers up to 1000 watts but still limited to an assist speed of 15mph. That class should be registered and plated of course, but one can see the confusion caused by the multipicity. E-bikes under UK law only permitted 200 watts, but through a waiver permitted the EU 250 watts. Low powered mopeds with pedal assist. Mopeds in the 30mph P1 class. Mopeds capable of higher speeds in the motorcycle class. And of course the differing ages permitted for various types and powers of two wheelers, 14, 16, 17, 21 etc.

For a police officer who needs to know the existence of a vast range of laws pertaining to all forms of human activity, our area is a very minor issue and the welter of confusion within it is enough to put most off of even getting involved.

 

[Kudoscycles]

In that case once again, the Law is an Ass. I can ride a class 3 mobility Scooter, which is far heavier far more unwieldy, on road and pavement . On the road I can go only 8mph which quite frankly is Dangerous. Try getting across a busy junction at that for max speed along with the pathetic torque these rip off machines have. With The Bike I use mostly the bike lanes where I live nobody objects, many people have stopped and asked me about the bike and feel they have had a glimpse of the future. I can take my Dogs out in the country park next door (it is full of Bike paths). The local police pass me on their bikes occasionally and say hi. A mobility scooter couldn't possibly handle the surface on those fields the Bike can...so woop de doo back to the sofa

Shambolic..if you notice I put like on your posting and agree with all you say.....except I cannot sell these bikes legally in the circumstances that you want to use them....I could import them and get type approval but then you could only use them on the public highway as a moped,from your postings I assume that would not be attractive to you?
That is the dilemma,if I do the job properly and legally I will always be at a disadvantage to the companies who are selling illegal bikes.
It would be better if these companies did not openly tout for business from 14 year old teenagers,after all if you are going to put 800 watts into these bikes and be illegal,you might as well put 1600 watts and make them 45mph bikes,for that is the norm in China.
I am sure you ride your bike responsibly but within the hundreds of these illegal bikes and scooters sold every year,there must be some irresponsible riders.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

GUIDE TO UK LAW

• Anyone 14 years or older can ride the E RIDER on the road

• Younger riders may use the E RIDER off road

• The E RIDER is not subject to Vehicle Excise Duty

• A driving licence is not required to operate the E RIDER

• The E RIDER does not require an MOT

• Insurance is not legally required for the E RIDER

• The E RIDER does not need to be registered with the DVLA

• The E RIDER may be used in bus lanes and on cycle paths

• A helmet is not legally required when operating the E RIDER *

• The E RIDER is not liable to parking fines or congestion charges

• An E RIDER is not required to provide a breath or blood sample *

How can any right thinking person think this is a bicycle!
The spec says 39kg and 200W of power yeh!!

Kudosdave

 

[Deleted member 4366]

If it has two wheels, usable pedals, a motor of 200W or less, weighs less than 40kg, a speed less than 15 mph, then it's a bicycle regardless of what your paradigms make you think one should look like. The only question is whether it meets those criteria. Whether it does or doesn't is probably not as important as having a plate or piece of paper that says it does as far as the police are concerned, but if an unhappy customer thought it didn't meet those criteria, so went to trading standards, life could be a bit difficult for the seller.

As a slight aside, Barnes and Robinson used to sell electric scooters and bikes, but their website now says "closed" and they've de-registered from Ebay. Does anybody know what happened to them?

 

[Kudoscycles]

Dave,I think they were exhibiting at the NEC cycle show last year,very cheap bikes as I remember.
Dave

 

[Deleted member 4366]

That was two years ago when they just started with electric bikes. Before that they sold tools.

 

[trex]

another one bites the dust?
phone disconnected, online shop disconnected.
It goes to show that the UK market is a very tough nut.

About
Welcome to Barnes and Robinson, Electric Bicycles and Electric Road Scooters. Please check out our website! www.barnesandrobinson.com Tel:- 01772 285528
Description
Two years in the making, we now believe we have got the best quality/value electric bikes on the market. Offering beautiful finished, great performing bikes, to run along side our popular electric road scooters. All our products are guaranteed, fully UK certified and road legal with a full range of spare parts and after sale commitment here in the UK. All products delivered for FREE direct to your door.

 

[shemozzle999]

A previous stated law case about a similar type of bike failed the test in law due to the fact that the bike could not operate as a bicycle when unassisted.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

another one bites the dust?
phone disconnected, online shop disconnected.
It goes to show that the UK market is a very tough nut.

They might have closed because they made a fortune and retired to the Bahamas, or they might have sold their business for a million pounds to some other dealer that's looking to expand.

 

[Cyclezee]

There is a brief explanation of electric scooter laws on the AtoB website via this link http://www.atob.org.uk/electric-motorbikes-scooters/electric-motorbike-scooter-licensing-laws/

 

[flecc]

That's a good guide John, but they haven't included the "Low Powered Moped Class", probably because they've never knowingly come across any of these up to 1000 watt pedal assisted machines.

We'll have to do some more learning once the EU classifications are accepted, there being various L1 classes. Currently S class e-bikes are L1e-A and mopeds up to 50cc or 4 kW are L1e-B.
.

 

[trex]

They might have closed because they made a fortune and retired to the Bahamas, or they might have sold their business for a million pounds to some other dealer that's looking to expand.

most e-bike dealers don't have a million pounds or if they do, some are known to put it in a boat!
seriously, on the continent, most e-bikes are sold by the largest LBSes in town but in the UK, our LBSes don't want us fatsos to come into their shops and spoil the sporty look of the displays so it's left to the 'specialists' to supply e-bikes. Not good.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

They'll be sorry soon!

 

[trex]

if the size of the market gets over 50,000 a year, the big LBSes will open their doors to e-bikes and it'll be exponential growth, we have more fatsos than our neighbours.

 

[Cyclezee]

if the size of the market gets over 50,000 a year, the big LBSes will open their doors to e-bikes and it'll be exponential growth, we have more fatsos than our neighbours.

Our neighbours are quite slim.