E-mopeds,e-scooters,legality?

A guy came up to me at the recent Kent Show with a photo of his e-scooter,which he said could be ridden without tax,mot,helmet because it was a bicycle. He had a brief specification which clearly stated that the scooter could be ridden as if it was a bicycle.

The weight was from memory about 60 KGs and the motor rated at 200 watts.

I pointed out to him that the maximum weight,under UK law,must be under 40kgs so therefore his scooter was a motorised scooter and must be registered as such.

He assured me it went up hills well,I did question how that was possible with only 200 watts power and such a heavy machine. It had all the appearance of a Chinese scooter which is normally minimum 800 watt power,sometimes double that.

Has anyone else come across these e-scooters claiming to be Pedelecs?

KudosDave

Maybe its 200w constant and 800w peak power?

 

I nevet dared get such a scoot and i'd be interested to hear about live experience

40 kg is the limit.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/36V-200W-PEDAL-ASSISTED-ELECTRIC-SCOOTER-MOPED-BIKE-FULLY-ROAD-LEGAL-/261261541884

 

Here's a 200w one with a 400w motor - woops!

 

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/electric-scooter-transaxle-motor-200w-electric_1919606080.html

 

There's quite a lot of people selling them, and I've seen a few on the road, and my neighbour had one that was actually checked by the police, who gave him the OK. He showed them the brochure with all the specifications in it, but forgot to tell them that it had an extra battery to increase it from 36v to 48v with a corresponding increase in speed and power. It was about 60kg too, I think that everybody conveniently ignores the weight.

Pedelecs member Synthman has one of these scooters and he posted on his legality experiences etc in this post, complete with a photo of it.

.

Quick question out of curiosity. Would a Sinclair C5 (250W, 45Kg, pedal assisted) require registration, insurance and number plates?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-28219291

 

http://2nd-gear.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/specifications-for-sinclair-c5-electric.html

No, the Sinclair C5 is road legal as it stands, cleared by the government of the day. It's an e-trike, 12 mph assist limit, 250 watts, lower than 60 kilos weight, all complying with UK e-bike law for e-trikes at that time.

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Quick question out of curiosity. Would a Sinclair C5 (250W, 45Kg, pedal assisted) require registration, insurance and number plates?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-28219291

 

http://2nd-gear.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/specifications-for-sinclair-c5-electric.html

 

It a tricycle, so it can be up to 60kg and still be classed as a bike.

I have one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261526456119 . I have been stopped by the Police, because they believed I was going down a Bus lane when it wasn't allowed ( In fact it was ). They seemed unsurprised by the bike. It has been great for me, as I have limited mobility and this is my substitute for an overpriced underpowered and unreliable mobility scooter ( they all seem to fit that spec). No problems with any hills around here and runs very smoothly.

With those scooters, perhaps a small spring-loaded outrigger wheel would make it legal. I can remember back in the late '70s or early '80s, you could buy such a device to clip to a motorbike so that you could ride a 750cc Triumph Bonneville as a learner - and carry a passenger. I think it was when they reduced the learner limit to 125cc, and it was aimed at those that still had not passed their test on 250cc bikes. Can anybody find a link?

 

Edit: Found it. It was the Sidewinder:

 

http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/attachments/yamaha/16631-couldnt-resist-her-not-off-road-but-nice-twin-all-same-80s-sidewinder.jpg

Its just we have heated discussions about 250 watt>350 watt,restricted>deristricted about our bicycles,I just cannot believe that this product which doesn't even look like a bicycle would not be continously stopped by the police for having no helmet,tax,insurance,number plate.

There is no way that scooter weighed below 40 kgs and with only 200 watts of power it would struggle to move itself up a hill never mind carry a rider.

The guy was very evasive,he obviously wasn't happy about his purchase and not even sure he owned one,maybe just tried it. I think he was looking to me for assurance that it was legal. Obviously not having the bike there to pick it up and weigh it and have a good look at the motor but it looked like the same as the millions of scooters that are everywhere in China and they all weigh about 60kgs and are mostly 800 watt!!!!,also very cheap.

It just makes a mockery of all the efforts we are going to,to keep our bikes within the law as bicycles if such clearly illegal scooters are ignored by the police on the road.

It said on the bit of paper that Prince Charles rode one. Blimey!!!,by royal appointment!!!!

KudosDave

I just cannot believe that this product which doesn't even look like a bicycle would not be continously stopped by the police for having no helmet,tax,insurance,number plate.

 

SImple answer - they don't really care. The majority of stops are becuase an ANPR has flagged something up. But as there is no number plate, nothing gets flagged up - they don't even notice there isn't a plate!*

 

If it's involved in an accident, then they'll care. If ridden carefully, courteously and otherwise lawfully then it'll stay under tha radar.

 

FYI - I've driven my Westfield for 5 years with no front number plate - re-inforcing my view that coppers don't even notice.

Seems to me mine is within the guidlines, there is nothing stated anywhere about how it looks and the wattage issue is unclear any way as far as I understand it i.e. all motors have variable wattage. The Police have had a good look at mine and the plate with specifications. It is a hollow metal frame and all the rest is plastic so I don't see why the weight should be excessive. It certainly doesn't feel it.

so I don't see why the weight should be excessive. It certainly doesn't feel it.

 

If you you look at the spec sheet, yours is rather conveniently "39kg", just like the convenient "200w". As long as you have an official looking plate/label on your bike that shows 200w ,15 mph max and less than 40 kg, everybody is happy. No body cares that 200w is actually 800w and that some kilograms are smaller than others. Weight isn't absolute anyway. It depends on altitude and latitude. We normally accept 9.81 as the constant to convert mass into weight, but actually, it's closer to 9.83 at sea level at the north pole and 9.76 at the top of Mnt Kilimanjaro. Of course if you take your bike to the Moon, it'll weigh about 1/6th of what it does in your garage.

What I didn't mention is that he intended to let his 14 year old son ride it on his next birthday,the kid looked about 12 years old to me,but he said he was 14 next month!!

After all it said on his bit of paper that it was legal for a 14 year old.

I asked him whether the motor was derestricted to 15 mph,he was evasive with his answer.

Dave

.... I can remember back in the late '70s or early '80s, you could buy such a device to clip to a motorbike so that you could ride a 750cc Triumph Bonneville as a learner - and carry a passenger.....Found it. It was the Sidewinder.....[/url]

 

I always wondered what that was all about. Another mystery of life solved!

Mine definitely is restricted to 15mph unless I choose to disconnect some internal wiring and friends have compared it's weight to a 'lightweight' mobility scooter I have which is 26kg and that suggests it's in the ballpark of 39kg. So not all of these bikes are created equal.

Shambolic,that bike is imported into Europe by Sachs.

I know the bike well,I spent 2hours at the Shanghai cycle show discussing with the manufacturer how we could make it bicycle legal

The bike is imported into Europe in 2 specs...

1) 500 watt....20/25 kmh....48v x 14Ah

2) 800 watt.....45 kmh........48v x 20Ah

Sachs of Germany have achieved type approval,so it can be easily registered as a e-moped in Germany,so should be easy here.

The weight varies between 55-65 KGs,dependant on spec.

My time was spent discussing how we could get the weight to below 40 KGs and get it to perform with a 250 watt motor but the manufacturer advised that was impossible.

Shame because it was a very well built bike,it sells retail about euro 1700 ,discounted often to euro 1300 in Germany.

Kudosdave

Actually,this posting raises a big question should e-mopeds not be considered in Pedelecs,ok you have to register,tax,insure,crash hat,but that would answer the requirement of those who wish to use an e-bike without pedalling and making it legal would not be that expensive.

Would Pedelecs members find such a bike attractive?

Should we be selling/using e-mopeds in the UK?

We could then use 800 watt machines and go along legally at 30 mph.

Interesting conversation point?

KudosDave

Hmmm seems like your thread was a set up from start to finish. Why did you ask the question if you knew the answer?

I was and still am interested in what is the attitude of Pedelecs members to these mopeds/scooters. To be honest the thread built on the way as regards info. I did not realise your bike was a Sachs Prima until I saw your photo and recognised the style,that pod on the handlebars is pretty unique to that bike,that's how I recognised it.

There are bikes that are tending towards a moped style from China which may have the possibility to get the weight down to bicycle proportions,to make reasonable progress with 250 watts you have to get the weight down to less than 30kgs.

I looked up the supplier of that bike and even he is ambiguous about its spec/description,it says 200/500 watt,it says 39 KGs weight but the packaged weight is 57 kilos(heavy cardboard box!)and the eBay sales description says moped-so even the seller finds it difficult to specify and describe his product.

Let's be honest these bikes are always sold by smaller companies who have nothing to lose if the proverbial hits the fan,bigger companies would be concerned about the implications.

I suppose we are all adults and can take a view on the risks but they state that a 14 year old can legally ride these machines,that is a big concern,these type of bikes are the majority which are on the road in China,they are usually ridden by 17 year olds and above but still result in over 2500 deaths per year-the Chinese are trying to tighten everything up but don't know how to without pushing everyone into the motor car.

The bike that the guy showed me on his photo was a scooter not a moped,it must be heavier than your bike,it had a lot of panels.

KudosDave

Until the law is clearly defined and put into place and the police given the freedom to prosecute then discussions are pointless.

 

I recently posted a thread on a 350W kit the seller at least described the item accurately giving the buyers the opportunity of the knowledge of what they where buying and if they want to operate it illegally then that is their decision.

 

Sellers will always sell if there is a buyer demand but have they got the balls to accurately describe what they are selling?

Edited July 15, 201411 yr by shemozzle999

Shambolic,that bike is imported into Europe by Sachs.

I know the bike well,I spent 2hours at the Shanghai cycle show discussing with the manufacturer how we could make it bicycle legal

...

Kudosdave

They would be more successful if someone puts in some money to get them properly type approved.

I test rode one of those with two seater saddle a couple of years ago, it had 48V SLA and 800W motor with provision for number plate and weighs about 50kgs. The advantage of these bikes is the comfort - big seat, foot rest, hydraulic brakes, full suspension and of course the big bike look, all for a ridiculously low price in comparison to a similarly looking ICE motobike. The maximum speed was around 20mph and was capable of climbing 10% hills. With a bit of work on the electrics, you could get 30mph top speed and 40 mile range, they would be ideal for congested London.

Shemozzle...I agree with you,it's more a trading standards issue,are these sellers accurately describing what they are selling?

I looked up the e-bay site that shamholic's bike came from,the feedback suggests about 5 sales per month. On this forum we are very knowledgeable about matters of illegality but a kid could have one bought for his 14th birthday and the kid and parents not realising they have bought an illegal bike.

Trex....for once we agree on something. I just cannot understand why these importers just don't do the job properly,get type approval as e-mopeds and everything is legal,the cost of registering and running the bike must be very small. They could only be ridden by adults,which would be good,and only on the public highway-in any event if you tried riding one down a cycle track or seafront the pedestrians would soon let their feelings known,going by the abuse that legal cyclists get on our local seafront.

I agree that they would be ideal,if legal,for use in London.

I actually found the website of the scooter that the guy in my OP said he bought as a bicycle,I will post it later today.

KudosDave

It is a 'grey' area, which the police having looked at a decade or so ago and found unrewarding tend to leave alone.

 

As has been written here before, a user of one of these bikes is likely to ride it without problems unless involved in a police attended accident. Then he might find himself up shitcreek if they really looked into it.

 

The other event which is bound to happen at some time and could cause publicity and bring things to a head is a 14 year old kid being killed riding an illegal bike like these which his respectable parents bought him thinking it was legal.

 

Fourteen year olds are killed all the time riding stolen and none registered motor bikes in some parts of towns of course.

In that case once again, the Law is an Ass. I can ride a class 3 mobility Scooter, which is far heavier far more unwieldy, on road and pavement . On the road I can go only 8mph which quite frankly is Dangerous. Try getting across a busy junction at that for max speed along with the pathetic torque these rip off machines have. With The Bike I use mostly the bike lanes where I live nobody objects, many people have stopped and asked me about the bike and feel they have had a glimpse of the future. I can take my Dogs out in the country park next door (it is full of Bike paths). The local police pass me on their bikes occasionally and say hi. A mobility scooter couldn't possibly handle the surface on those fields the Bike can...so woop de doo back to the sofa

Edited July 15, 201411 yr by shambolic