E-bike seizures surge as police take 'death traps' off the streets

[lenny]

E-bike seizures surge as police take 'death traps' off the streets

"One e-bike seized by police was found to be capable of reaching 70mph as concern grows over how many are being modified using cheap conversion kits."

"Among the forces with the largest year-on-year increases in e-bike seizures were Wiltshire Police (from 24 to 64), Police Scotland (from 60 to 233), Derbyshire Police (from four to 23), Northumbria Police (from 18 to 58) and South Wales Police (from 66 to 137)."

E-bike seizures surge as police take 'death traps' off the streets

One e-bike seized by police was found to be capable of reaching 70mph as concern grows over how many are being modified using cheap conversion kits.

news.sky.com

 

[Wayners]

I'm not surprised tbh.
It's not a large number of bikes with the amount around, but I guess they are targeting areas. It's a great form of transport though. Imagine when power packs make the next leap. Places like inner London should be filled with battery transport devices that fit within the law. I can't see that happening any time soon.

 

[Az.]

police caught a rider using an illegal e-bike featuring a motor with a maximum power output of 500 watts, which is twice the legal limit.

Yet another incompetent statement in news stories.

Also I wonder how do they know bike can reach 71mph.

Why you can trust Sky News

I don't.

 

[jimriley]

News of a clampdown in that there Londonland on BBC R4 news this morning.

 

[StuartsProjects]

News of a clampdown in that there Londonland on BBC R4 news this morning.

Indeed.

As well as comments from Sir Iain Duncan Smith who seemed disappointment that the changes the Conservatives were going to introduce for cycling offenses were abandoned because of the election, see the '5. Establishing new offences' section in the document below;

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/cyclists-and-the-law/

 

[Bonzo Banana]

So much incorrect information in that Sky News report. I don't have much confidence in the police getting this right to be honest. Looking at that sky news report if any ebike with a throttle is illegal then the majority of ebikes sold before 2017 are now fair cop and any 250W certified e-mountain bike with a mid-drive motor is also illegal as they can be close to 1000W in power and some newer models will exceed 1000W.

I do wonder though with no space available for real criminals in prisons if the police will just focus on crimes that result in fines etc. So maybe there will be more focus on ebikes and other minor crimes which don't result in a prison sentence. It reminds me of this joke;

 

[Ghost1951]

Saneagle has written many times about the power definition. I think most motors exceed 250 watts at times. That isn't a problem. The definition of what is allowed is that motors not be capable of more than 250 watts continuous output. This is rated by the motor manufacturer.

I suppose the regulations probably should have taken account of the controller too, because as we have all seen here, changing controller settings can increase actual continuous power -no matter what the manufacturer's rating says. I suspect that the people who drew up the legislation, probably had in mind a motor / controller combination, but lacked the technical knowledge to know that they should say so.

 

[Ocsid]

I suspect that the people who drew up the legislation, probably had in mind a motor / controller combination, but lacked the technical knowledge to know that they should say so.

A less "generous" take on this might be make it wooly to keep the legal industry, both defending and prosecuting, nice and bouyant?
IMO the legislation is very open ended, serving no real controlling purpose, as if that was the creator's intention/ brief.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Saneagle has written many times about the power definition. I think most motors exceed 250 watts at times. That isn't a problem. The definition of what is allowed is that motors not be capable of more than 250 watts continuous output. This is rated by the motor manufacturer.

I suppose the regulations probably should have taken account of the controller too, because as we have all seen here, changing controller settings can increase actual continuous power -no matter what the manufacturer's rating says. I suspect that the people who drew up the legislation, probably had in mind a motor / controller combination, but lacked the technical knowledge to know that they should say so.

Of course pretty much all ebikes operate at over 250W continuous output except for the very weak models and perhaps Swytch kits. The same ebikes that are rated 750W in the states are sold in Europe as 250W compliant. I personally don't believe a ebike that can discharge a 600Wh battery in 40 minutes climbing hills is 250W rated. Sometimes legislation is mindlessly stupid and corrupt and that is what I think of the EU legislation for E bikes. It should be a level playing field for all companies with proper specification checks not just a green light for EU manufacturers to sell more powerful ebikes while restricting imports of less powerful ebikes especially when the imports are often more reliable, more repairable, more practical and most importantly much better value.

 

[Woosh]

Of course pretty much all ebikes operate at over 250W continuous output except for the very weak models and perhaps Swytch kits. The same ebikes that are rated 750W in the states are sold in Europe as 250W compliant. I personally don't believe a ebike that can discharge a 600Wh battery in 40 minutes climbing hills is 250W rated. Sometimes legislation is mindlessly stupid and corrupt and that is what I think of the EU legislation for E bikes. It should be a level playing field for all companies with proper specification checks not just a green light for EU manufacturers to sell more powerful ebikes while restricting imports of less powerful ebikes especially when the imports are often more reliable, more repairable, more practical and most importantly much better value.

The 250W is very often misunderstood because a lot of people still remember the old formula that they learnt in high school such as P= V*I and V = R*I. Those formula don't apply to ebikes and EN15194. They are correct when applied to a resistive load but not a motor.
Saneagle explains much better than me but the gist of it is as long as you don't derestrict your bike, virtually all motors and controllers are compliant. The police can catch you if your bike is derestricted. It a clear cut case if they catch you doing over 15mph without pedalling.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

The 250W is very often misunderstood because a lot of people still remember the old formula that they learnt in high school such as P= V*I and V = R*I. Those formula don't apply to ebikes and EN15194. They are correct when applied to a resistive load but not a motor.
Saneagle explains much better than me but the gist of it is as long as you don't derestrict your bike, virtually all motors and controllers are compliant. The police can catch you if your bike is derestricted. It a clear cut case if they catch you doing over 15mph without pedalling.

Lots of products have brushless motors nowadays and state clear wattage figures in the certification, typically what the motor will go up continuously in wattage provided by the controller but it doesn't apply to ebikes the rating is completely different. You end up with small 20" wheeled ebikes with tiny little hub motors barely capable of 15Nm and only battery packs barely over 120Wh and 4A controllers and then you have huge 30kg e-mountain bikes with 700Wh batteries with extremely powerful mid-drive motors with 25A controllers delivering over 1000W going up hills both ebikes rated 250W. I've never seen this outside the EU, most countries have fair and realistic wattage ratings for ebikes.

It's like 250W just means restricted to 15.5mph it has no bearing on the wattage at all. Can you name any other product rated the same way? I've asked the question in various forums, US forums etc and no one believes these e-mountain bikes are 250W yet there is often a strange defence of it here in the UK actually really just this forum. My washing machine might have a 1500W motor but might trundle along at 100W just churning the washing for a period is it now a 100W motor according to the EU? This discussion has gone on many times and I simply don't accept the 250W rating is fair or accurate for many ebikes but it is what it is so I think we will have to agree to disagree.

It's not hard to measure the discharge rate of a battery pack to understand the wattage of a motor. You don't even have to measure it electrically you can calculate wattage by knowing the battery capacity and how long it takes to discharge the battery when the ebike is run at maximum power.

 

[saneagle]

Lots of products have brushless motors nowadays and state clear wattage figures in the certification, typically what the motor will go up continuously in wattage provided by the controller but it doesn't apply to ebikes the rating is completely different. You end up with small 20" wheeled ebikes with tiny little hub motors barely capable of 15Nm and only battery packs barely over 120Wh and 4A controllers and then you have huge 30kg e-mountain bikes with 700Wh batteries with extremely powerful mid-drive motors with 25A controllers delivering over 1000W going up hills both ebikes rated 250W. I've never seen this outside the EU, most countries have fair and realistic wattage ratings for ebikes.

It's like 250W just means restricted to 15.5mph it has no bearing on the wattage at all. Can you name any other product rated the same way? I've asked the question in various forums, US forums etc and no one believes these e-mountain bikes are 250W yet there is often a strange defence of it here in the UK actually really just this forum. My washing machine might have a 1500W motor but might trundle along at 100W just churning the washing for a period is it now a 100W motor according to the EU? This discussion has gone on many times and I simply don't accept the 250W rating is fair or accurate for many ebikes but it is what it is so I think we will have to agree to disagree.

It's not hard to measure the discharge rate of a battery pack to understand the wattage of a motor. You don't even have to measure it electrically you can calculate wattage by knowing the battery capacity and how long it takes to discharge the battery when the ebike is run at maximum power.

You shouldn't get confused between watts from the battery and watts from the motor. There is no direct relationship. When you bring the word "continuous" into the requirement, it means in all normal riding circumstances, including going up steep hills. In other words, the motor needs to be able to output 250w when going up a steep hill with efficiency as low as 30% without overheating. Actually, there are not many motors that can do that. When they test a motor to see if it meets its rating, they run it at its maximum efficiency rpm. You would therefore need a safety factor of 3 or 4 if that motor were to be used in an ebike that might have to go up hills.

 

[jimriley]

Saneagle has written many times about the power definition. I think most motors exceed 250 watts at times. That isn't a problem. The definition of what is allowed is that motors not be capable of more than 250 watts continuous output. This is rated by the motor manufacturer.

I suppose the regulations probably should have taken account of the controller too, because as we have all seen here, changing controller settings can increase actual continuous power -no matter what the manufacturer's rating says. I suspect that the people who drew up the legislation, probably had in mind a motor / controller combination, but lacked the technical knowledge to know that they should say so.

Dont tell em Pike

 

[Az.]

Saneagle explains much better than me but the gist of it is as long as you don't derestrict your bike, virtually all motors and controllers are compliant.

Are you trying to say TSDZ8 sold by PSW for £216 is as legal as the same motor sold by you for £385?

 

[Woosh]

Are you trying to say TSDZ8 sold by PSW for £216 is as legal as the same motor sold by you for £385?

they could ask Tongheng to label their motor as 250W like I do.
BTW, the price that PSW is selling does not include VAT and duty.

 

[Az.]

they could ask Tongheng to label their motor as 250W like I do.

That is not the answer to my question.

 

[Woosh]

That is not the answer to my question.

I thought it's clear enough. Tongsheng makes the motors, they label them anyway they like.

 

[Az.]

I thought it's clear enough. Tongsheng makes the motors, they label them anyway they like.

My point is - there are many motors and ready made e-bikes on the market illegal as they are sold. No need to derestrict them or anything. They are simply illegal in the eyes of the law. On the very first picture in this thread there is an Engwe bike sized by police.

 

[saneagle]

Are you trying to say TSDZ8 sold by PSW for £216 is as legal as the same motor sold by you for £385?

There are no rules about how to rate a motor's power, except that you mustn't overrate it, and there's a test for that. A manufacturer can underrate a motor as much as they want. They can even supply different versions to different markets.

From our point of view, the only thing that matters is that the manufacturer has rated the motor at 250w or less and labelled it accordingly. It's not for us to get involved in how the rating is done. It's far too complicated for most people to understand anyway, especially when most people have wrongly fixed the idea in their minds that the maximum output power has anything to do with it.

 

[Woosh]

My point is - there are many motors and ready made e-bikes on the market illegal as they are sold. No need to derestrict them or anything. They are simply illegal in the eyes of the law. On the very first picture in this thread there is an Engwe bike sized by police.

Can you post a link to the Engwe bike that has been seized?
As far as I know, if the bike is described as EN15194 compliant, it must not have twist and go throttle.