E-bike as mobility aid - advice please

[Orraman]

Thank you for letting us know how you have prevailed, it's good to know that you are both getting out together.

I am much in favour of hub gears, the ability to select any gear at any time, particularly from stationary is important to me.

Looking forward to more information.

Dave.

 

[Artstu]

Yes I'd like to see some photos.

I've just been out on my leccy bike today for the first time in ages and loved every minute, my legs are on fire now. It gives you such a lift to get out, today I was riding with my friends four year old girl, and I'm ashamed to say I was only just keeping up without the motor running.

If I want to keep up with her as she grows I'm going to have to get a much faster bike very soon

 

[theWoosh]

625 w cyclone powered bike - pics

These are pictures of the first working version - I have since put the battery into a locakable topbox, and moved the controller (though I/m still not sure where to put it).

Here is the whole bike (leaning up against my motorbike):

Notice battery is wrapped in plastic bag and strapped to rack - controller is likewise taped to tube under saddle - not a great spot if you happen to slip forward!

Closeup of chainset and motor:

This is a short seperate chain (had to buy another chain and cut it down) that drives the outside cog on the cyclone chainset. Obviously you need to adjust the gear change stop so the gears can only access the two inner cogs...

Here you can see how the replacement freewheel chainset gearing works:

And from the rear:

cont...

 

[theWoosh]

I originally bolted the chunky aluminium bracket straight onto the downtube, but even though I tightened it as hard as I dared, the extreme torque generated by acceleration, kept twisting it, and loosening the chain. I was worried about crushing the aluminium tubing if I tightened it any more, plus it seemed like there was just not enough surface contact, so I went to the builders merchants and found a section of wooden moulding with almost the perfect section to fit round the oversize alloy tubing and put 3 pieces of this round the tube inside the bracket.
A year later and it has not had to be tightened (painted all exposed areas with black enamel paint, as well as painting the exposed metalwork of the bracket)

And here is a pic of my partner enjoying the bike with no pedal-pushing on a holiday in South Wales:

The Cyclone kit comes with a pretty bog standard grip throttle (so can only work with older-style gear-shifters and not twist gears as far as i can see- even then it is a bit of a squash getting everything on the right handlebar...

You can see an installation guide here Electric bicycle DIY kits kit e-bike DIY kits kit Electric bicycle DIY kits kit e-bike DIY kits kit Electric bicycle DIY kits kit e-bike DIY kits kit

I will post some more pics of the bike in it's current stage of development when I get round to taking some photos...

The controller is now taped below the position in the photos - hanging beneath the top tube, but this is still not perfect - there is room in the top box above the battery, but I am infomed that this part can overheat and has a thermal cut-out. Am aware that unecnlosed there is a risk of water getting into it and shorting it, but have not had a problem so far...

 

[theWoosh]

BTW I think seperate controller units are only included in the higher-power kits - the lower powered ones have the controller built in to the motor. I can see the advantages of this (not having to figure out where to put it!), but I guess it will overheat to easily built in. The motor is certainly the hottest place on the bike!

Please let me know if there is more you would like to know or see.

Cheers

 

[allen-uk]

I use an electric bike rather than an ordinary one as my various physical problems meant that my non-electric bike was getting less and less use, and when I DID get out on it, it was very hard work, particularly up small hills.

I have one plastic leg, and the so-called 'good' leg has various problems, too. These make walking painful, and although I can push quite hard with my prosthetic foot, it's obviously not as strong as a proper leg. That, plus the almost inevitable gain in weight (most amputees know all about this!) meant that electric was a logical step.

I bought a Wisper in June 2010, and have done many hundreds of miles since - I attend all my hospital appointments by bike.

Others with leg problems will probably follow my purchasing example and go for a bike WITH a throttle, rather than the throttle-less Panasonic-type bikes. I tried the latter, and was highly impressed by their build quality and power, but the absence of the throttle, almost indispensable for those lacking leg power to start off on hills, swayed me to the Wisper.

If you've got 'normal' legs but other problems, then the Kalkhoff might be the bike for you, but obviously do try them first, and not just on the flat.


Allen, bka, Wisper 905se, 2010.

 

[indalo]

allen-uk, I think you've made the case for a throttle very succinctly.

For me, it's something I don't need at present and hadn't really given it much thought but who knows? Maybe in the future I'll want that kind of assistance.

Indalo

 

[Orraman]

theWoosh,

A first class job.

You have proved that it is possible to create a viable alternative to the class 3 invalid carriage with good range,
unrivalled hill climbing and more than enough speed at no great cost.
The best class 3 is the British built Tramper but such quality costs nearly £6000.
The only limit to the power of a class 3 invalid carriage is that the vehicle must not weigh more than 150kg
including any OIL or WATER it may need.

So I have no quarrel with the your chosen system but you have also commented that the use of a smaller motor
might be possible and I am still of the opinion that one of the smaller framed Cyclone motors could manage the
task albeit at a slower speed.

A smaller motor would reduce the weight of the motor from 4kg to 1.8kg, dispense with the weight of the
external controller and safely reduce the minimum size, weight and cost of the battery needed to provide
the maximum amps the motor can use.

There is no great cost difference between the motors but the saving in weight would be nearly 6.5kg
and on the battery could be as much as £160.

If it is ever convenient could you take the time and effort to measure the incline of the steepest hill you have
access to and record the speed, the weight of the rider and the gear ratio used?
This would give a better assessment of my ideas and may be of use to others.

Dave

 

[allen-uk]

One vital point I forgot to make, above.

The JOY of movement! If I contemplate walking the half-mile to the shops, I'm contemplating a painful half hour. I can DO it, but I no longer get any pleasure from the walk.

But on the bike! My longest round trip has only been about 14 miles, but each day I pop out for at least 4 or 5 miles up hills and down, across parks, just for the exhilaration of pain-free movement.

So YES to ebikes as mobility aids! They can transform lives.


Allen.

 

[flecc]

So YES to ebikes as mobility aids! They can transform lives.


Allen.

I agree. That's why I stressed elsewhere that it would be best to seek an e-bike throttle only permission for the
disabled, rather than trying to achieve it universally for everyone. As a disabled measure it would probably get an
easy nod-through legally in the EU and not meet the huge resistance from some influential quarters against all
e-bikes having them.
.

 

[allen-uk]

You are of course right, Flecc, but I'm not sure how much weight that'll carry.

I've been involved (peripherally, at least) with amputee lobby groups for some years, and the response to that fairly sizeable body of people has been bordering on nil.

So how much notice will be taken of the dozen or so ebiking amps who want to retain their throttles? Well, living in hope is a good thing, I suppose!


Allen.

 

[allen-uk]

The move to bring in full implementation of EU law on pedelec only isn't happening yet, but it's expected within about two years. Even when in force, it won't ban throttles outright, they'll still be permitted while pedelec is operating, but will not be able to be used without pedalling.
.

Flecc: I'm quoting you from about 18 months back (as, for good or ill, you're the most knowledgeable person I've come across on this topic!).

Is what you wrote in 2009 still your understanding of the eventual legislation? I ask because what you described then doesn't sound too bad, at least in terms of legless riders like me - what an amputee (this amputee) wants from an ebike is power through the pedals, to use 99% of the time, PLUS power through a throttle, to use for those otherwise impossible hill starts.

(Sorry to nudge this thread away from its original point, but this does have relevance to many disabled riders).

Thanks.


Allen.

 

[allen-uk]

I'm bumping this thread as the reply I get from Flecc (or anyone else who knows these things) is important to me!

Apologies for the bump.


Allen.

 

[Blew it]

Allen, This is the reply I posted the last time you asked the question.


"The Panasonic 'throttle' is very low powered, add to that the very 'soft' start means it takes a while to get going with the rider mounted, even on the flat. If there is the slightest incline, it wont move at all with my 78 Kgs sitting on it.

One thing I can tell you from personal experience, is that a Wisper 705 set up for EU use ( purple wires connected ) will take off very quickly and strongly from a standing start using the throttle only, even on a steepish upslope, but only to 4 mph. I suspect the Wisper machines set up for EU use have full amps draw available when ridden in this way.

Another reason this type of machine would be most suitable for a monoped, is the two second run-on typical of hub-motored machines using a rotation pedelec sensor. This run-on effectively fills the gap between 'good leg' pedal strokes."

I should add that not all EU spec machines would work the same as the Wisper. On some machines the throttle becomes 'active' only after one or two turns of the pedals and is then used to vary the degree of assistance. Both methods are acceptable under the EU regs, and is covered by legislation regarding 'Pedestrian Controlled Vehicles'. This allows independant powered assistance to 6 km/h, a fast walking pace.

There may be other machines that will work in the same way as the Wisper when set up for use in Europe, but I only give advice on machines with which I have personal hands-on experience.

Regards
Bob

 

[flecc]

I second what Bob has said, the walk alongside throttle on the Panasonic system isn't up to what you need for
hill starts. A hub motor system is better, especially if full power is available on the low speed throttle as Bob
indicates on that Wisper model.
.

 

[allen-uk]

Thanks Bob, Flecc.

Without quoting the full (tedious) legislation in full, could you summarise what it is going to ban. For example, I'm not bothered if they ban throttle-only bikes. I'm much more interested in whether the legislation will ban the typical (for example) Wisper set up.

Allen.

 

[flecc]

As presently constituted and regarding the intentions, this has a multi-part answer which I'll explain in full
for everyone's benefit.

First, the present intention is that e-bike legislation should rule for pedelec only, power only available when
pedalling.

However, there is entirely separate legislation regarding pedestrian controlled vehicles which has no connection
whatsoever to e-bikes. Under EU rules this provides for speeds of up to 6 kph when a pedestrian is walking
with a powered cart/barrow etc on roads or pavements, under the UK's separate but compatible legislation this
provides for speed up to 4 mph, fractionally faster.

Under these pedestrian controlled vehicle rules the Swiss BikeTec company, where they have their own similar
legislation, cleverly took advantage of it to put a walk alongside thumb throttle onto the Panasonic system
to help those who couldn't ride up the toughest hills, where it could help them walk a bike up. This has later
been adopted by Panasonic as an optional fitment. To the best of my knowledge there is no ruling in any
legislation, EU, UK or Swiss to limit the power available for this purpose, it's whatever the loaded cart/barrow
needs.

It follows that an e-bike rider can use the facility as a power take-off when riding from a standstill up a hill. This is
probably illegal since the "pedestrian" who should be walking in control of the vehicle is then absent, but no-one
is ever likely to make a legal issue of this.

There is one further completely disconnected law affecting our e-bikes, this one unique to the UK. The Road
Traffic Act 1988 rules that a rider of an electric assist bike has to be 14 years old or over, a rather silly rule that
is not felt necessary anywhere else in the world.

Of these three legislations, the only one under consideration for change is the first, the EAPC (electric assist
pedal cycle) construction and use rules, so the independent walk alongside facility will remain available.

N.B. David Miall of Wisper has indicated that efforts for a liberal EU attitude to throttles may yet be successful.
.

 

[allen-uk]

Thanks for taking the time, Flecc. I'll digest that lot for a while.


A

 

[pictsidhe]

My knees are crappy, I haven't riddena pedal cycle for nearly 20 years due to this, an ebike that moves itself is fthough, actually easier than driving as I don't have to constantly push pedals, having to pedal would make that not so, I suspect there are LOT of people of borderline health who would ride an e-bike if it didn't need pedaling constantly, with spiralling fuel costs, more may try it.

My own little mixing legislation idea is to combine e-bike and invalid carriage, as far as I can tell, invalid carriegs onkly have a weight and speed limit well inside e-bike limits, they are not restricted on power, so I think a bike that met invalid carriage laws at low speed and then e-bike laws up to 15 mph would be a great compromise, big hill, no problem! Just slow down to 8mph, still quicker than walking, especially up a big hill, having to pedal would kill this for new e-bikes

 

[Orraman]

pictsidhe,

I am more lucky than many in that although I can't walk more than a few feet unassisted I have some power in both legs. In posts # 24 and # 48 I have stated my situation and opinions on ebike / class 3 invalid carriage hybrid.

The legal situation regarding using a bicycle as a class 3 is that while there is no written legislative restriction on using a bicycle as a class 3 there is the widely held assumption that all class 3s will be tricycles. In a written reply the then Minister of Transport gave this as a reason for not confirming that a bicycle arrangement would be legal, saying that it would have to be tested in court. A failure could result in a criminal record.

So I bought an American SideKid sidecar which tilts with the bike so that I could have three wheels without the tricycle instability. However it would not fit any of my bikes so it remains unused and with the purchase of the Panasonic powered Gitane it is not needed.
My personal favourite would be for a Di Blasi R34 which with the addition of class 3 lights, brakes, mandatory licence plate, and a 4mph switch should pass police examination on any pavement.

Dave