E-bike as mobility aid - advice please

[Artstu]

I'd imagine what you require would be easy to acheive, but I've no practical experience on this myself, come on guys tell us how.

I had a short bike ride today, my first in years to be honest, it was a gentle ride with my friend and kids and I'm really pleased to say I actually found it easier than walking. With a little assitance I think I could enjoy myself again on a bike don't think I'll be doing some of my 60 mile routes any time soon though.

I'm still confused about the merits of hub again Panasonic units though

 

[Andy Grayland]

I agree that this is a tall order. I think the bike that will closest match what you are looking for is the Ezee Chopper. see OnBike Electric Bikes UK - The Electric Bicycle Specialist . It has amazing hill climbing ability but is limited to 12-13mph. It all depends on the weight of the rider. If you wire parallel batteries its hill climbing is even better. You would be welcome to come and try one out.

Andy

 

[Artstu]

Thanks Andy,

I realise your answer is more for the original poster.

I'm guessing the small wheels are the key here with the hill-climbing ability, the diameter increasing the torque compared with a bigger wheel.

So a 500w hub motor in a small rear wheel for added torque and traction would be even better for Mrs Woosh?

 

[Orraman]

With a duff leg and a dickey ticker I used a class 3 invalid carriage and a bicycle for 20+ years until cycling a short one in forty gradient became too strenuous.
I joined this forum hoping to get ideas about adapting a class 3 scooter by incorporating cycle components to allow me to get a little exercise.

From information on this forum and my own trials I ended up with a lightweight Panasonic powered Gitane that has a three speed hub gear which has provided ideal, climbing all local hills and allowing me to regulate my effort to meet the exercise I need.

A Cyclone motor lashed onto a long wheelbase recumbent driving a 700c wheel from a 16 tooth motor sprocket provides a truly exhilarating ride with no physical input needed.
This leads me to believe that 14 tooth on the motor driving a 20 inch wheel with a wide range geared hub with a 23 tooth sprocket could well meet the requirements.
My Cresswell Foldit meets those requirements and may get the spare Cyclone and I am confident such a combination would provide a satisfactory hill climbing solution without effort.

Mid mounted motors, perhaps with a layshaft in the manner of EcoSpeed could have gearing arranged to climb any road gradient without rider input.

There are several systems on this link that might suit and I fancy the Electro Cycle tricycle or a compact model.

Dave

Electric Bikes - Electric-Bikes.com

 

[MaryinScotland]

however, surely unless you go and tell the DLA, they are never gonna know you are riding a bike with a motor capable of over 20w...

There's one thought that would discourage me from using an "illegal" bike; if I was involved in an accident, regardless of who caused it, there would be an opposing lawyer doing his damnedest to pin the blame on me. He would certainly latch on to any illegality of the bike.

Mary

 

[theWoosh]

So - it seems that to get the correct torque for hill climbing ability and unassisted ride, you need a combination of small wheels and a high power motor when using a powered hub.

Is there any other alternative that drives the crankset (the front cog) of the bike, so you can take advantage of the derailleur back gears? This might enable you to make a slow start in lowest gear and then gear up as you pick up speed... I'm sure I've seen something like this somewhere on the web (Though I think it was a home made job that used a chain-drive to the outside sprocket)... maybe I should get my toolkit out!

Cheers

 

[theWoosh]

Andy -
I notice that one of the models you stock the eZee Quando II has what it says are 'planetary gears' - I presume these are hub gears (like the old Sturmey-Archer). Is this a system of providing gearing to the hub motor? or just to the drive chain?

If it works on the hub drive, then is this kind of system a solution to the hill climbing problem?

BTW Thanks for your offer of a test-ride. If we get near either of your stores, we will certainly take you up on that...

Many Thanks

 

[torrent99]

Is there any other alternative that drives the crankset (the front cog) of the bike, so you can take advantage of the derailleur back gears? This might enable you to make a slow start in lowest gear and then gear up as you pick up speed... I'm sure I've seen something like this somewhere on the web (Though I think it was a home made job that used a chain-drive to the outside sprocket)... maybe I should get my toolkit out!

Cheers

Yes there's the Cyclone kit (as mentioned above), but you'd still need to exceed the 250W legal maximum, and the kit doesn't have the best reputation. To convert a normal bike and have enough power it might be the best bet though. (do some searches here to find it).

Having just come back from 2 weeks in the rain in Teignmouth, I know what those S.Devon hills are like, and I can't see any normal e-bike managing them without human input.

 

[flecc]

the eZee Quando II has what it says are 'planetary gears' - I presume these are hub gears (like the old Sturmey-Archer). Is this a system of providing gearing to the hub motor? or just to the drive chain?

If it works on the hub drive, then is this kind of system a solution to the hill climbing problem?

This is just the normal gearing system inside most hub motors to reduce the shaft speed of the motor to a better match with the wheel rotation speed. Here's the Quando motor's insides:

Nearly all e-bike hub motors are like this, most made by Suzhou Bafang in China, just a few like the Crystalyte, BionX and Sparta motor are direct drives where the motor is part of the hub and runs at wheel speed.

You can read more about these internally geared hub motors in my website on this link.
.

 

[theWoosh]

Hi,
Thanks for all your input.

Kits
I have been looking at the Cyclone & Ecospeed (Elec. mountain Drive) mid-drive kits, as they look to be the way to go - making use of the lower gears on the deraileur where necessary uphill and starting off. The Ecospeed looks better mounted and constructed but is more expensive.

Availability
Are either of these (or any other) available in the UK, or will I have to ship from Taiwan or the US? Anyone else got stories of how importing these went? Any idea what the duty would be?

Power
It seems as though a 500w motor would be a reasonable compromise (the double motor 2kw cyclones look extremeley dangerous - push-bikes are not equipped either in chain or brakes for that kind of power IMO). This seems about the same power as an old petrol solex motor (500w= approx 2/3 hp) I think, so would hopefully be adequate. Anyone got any experience of using these? My partner weighs about 130lb (9 stone 4lb) - should she be able to start without peddling? what sort of grade will she achieve without pedalling?

Batteries & Range
What would be the minimum battery config for this motor do you think? The only limitation with this that I can see (providing it is powerful enough) is that even with 2 10AH 24v LiFePO4 batteries, at full throttle she will get less than a half hours use. How long will that equate to on real journeys (considering it will be fitted to a mountain or hybrid bike, and will be used largely off-road on bridlepaths).
The Cyclone site mentions A high power (20 or 40 A) 'fast charger' option, which would charge the IifePO4 batteries in half hour. Is this safe/desirable - I thought Lithium-based batteries didn't like being charged quickly...

Security
The other consideration is in making this theft-proof - I can imagine that if a kit can be fitted simply then it can be removed simply, and if you are carrying £500 worth of batteries on your bike, this will be a theft-magnet. It's not gonna be very useful, if when she pops to the village shops she has to dismantle the bike and carry heavy batteries around. We do live in a fairly crime-low rural area, but even so it would be a disaster if it all got pinched.

If anyone can respond with any information or thoughts on any of these points (or point me to threads/sites where they are already discussed), I would be most grateful.

Many Thanks

 

[Orraman]

Cranks

I have sent you private message with links.

Dave

 

[Anglo]

Hi theWoosh,

Like your partner I have ME/CFS. I used to enjoy cycling and fell running before I got ill 20 years ago with glandular fever, and since then I have only occasionally left my home other than in my car as walking up the hill outside exhausts me.

Ten years ago I looked into electric bikes and tried one, but didn't feel the hill climbing ability of the bikes available at the time were going to get me up the hills around my home in the North of England, but earlier this year I found a bike promising 15% hill climbing ability without me having to pedal, a Montague Paratrooper folding mountain bike fitted with a 200W, 36V motor (Heinzmann motor type 870-00-753-1122) powered by a 36V, 9.6Ah Li-Ion battery from Steve Punchard at electric mountain bikes, electric bicycle, electric bike kits, folding bicycles.

I have now cycled about 250 miles on it in the last 4 months, and while I have experimented with pedalling a bit, I doubt I can contribute any more than 1% of the total energy it takes to propel it on a typical 9 mile ride without experiencing severe muscle fatigue/pain in the next few days, but its good to get a little alternative exercise to walking.

The bike easily climbs 1 in 6 hills without me pedalling at all, will pull away up a 1 in 6 slope from stationary with my 10 stone on it without any pedalling assistance from me, and will happily go up 1 in 4 hills with just a little pedalling assistance.

I have cycled it 11 miles around Derwentwater in the Lake District, and yesterday I cycled 9.6 miles from Elterwater, through Little Langdale up the 1 in 4 hills to Blea Tarn and back through Great Langdale to Elterwater. See Gmaps Pedometer

What has surprised me is that I often feel well enough to go out riding my bike when I don't feel well enough to walk any distance or drive my car, which enables me to get out on days I wouldn't have otherwise. Have tried riding it on some really rough tracks, but the shaking seems to make what I take to be my lymph nodes etc. (which your partner may know all about) ache for at least 24hrs after, so I prefer to keep to roads and smooth tracks.

The bike folds up and fits in the boot of my car (a 2003 Vauxhall Astra hatchback) with the back seat up and load cover on so nobody can tell its in the car from outside. It weighs 24 kg in total, but now I have got used to how it folds, I don't find it difficult to get it in and out of the boot with the front wheel and saddle+seat+post+rack+bag+battery removed.

The handle bar throttle control indicates the level of remaining charge with 5 bright LED indicators, that can be selected to reduced brightness at night. These LED's also indicate faults with the control system etc. by flashing in sequences. (I keep a copy of their meaning in the bike bag but have not needed it so far).

When the first green LED goes out and the second green LED comes on 14% of the battery charge has been used, when the third orange LED comes on 72% charge is left, fourth yellow LED (58% left) until the last red LED comes on indicating 44% of the battery charge is left. Apparently when the last red LED flashes the battery charge is down to 30% charge and the control system shuts down to protect the battery from further discharge, but I have not had this happen yet.

The throttle also has a economy 'eco' mode switch that restricts the battery drain for situations when you don't need maximum power, such as cycling on the flat and slight inclines. I have found this especially useful when cycling along with my partner and others on walks.

I went for the battery in rack bag option, as I am sure I would find carrying the battery in a rucksack exhausting.

See also:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/2695-montague-folding-paratrooper-mountain-bike.html

Velo Vision (Issue 32 - December 2008)

 

[Orraman]

Greetings Anglo,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for posting detailed information.

Do you think that your health and stamina has improved from using your electric bike?

Dave

 

[Anglo]

Thanks Dave.

While I feel my confidence has improved, I haven't noticed any improvement in my health and stamina yet, so far I have been mainly getting used to riding the bike and finding out what it can do.

Much has been said about the benefits or otherwise of exercise with my illness. Some seem to improve from exercising, but some have periods of recovery and relapse.

In 20 years I haven't noticed any improvement in my health from any exercise I have undertaken, however if exercise is of any benefit in this illness seems to me an electric bike with its power assistance and built in seat may be one of the best, possibly the best way of getting some gentle exercise, for it somehow seems to encourage me to pedal and I tend to find myself pedalling more than I intended and suffering the consequences .

I decided to buy my bike to get out and about more, not with any expectation of it benefiting my health. If my health and stamina improves it would certainly be a bonus.

 

[JEM40]

I too have CFS and bought a Wisper 705SE in the summer rather than go for a mobility scooter or electric wheelchair. Unfortunately the roads around my village are very rough so the longest trip I have done so far is 3 miles to my nearest bike shop to buy some accessories. By the time I'd done the 3 miles home again I needed several days to recover.

However, I do believe having the bicycle has helped me to improve through pacing my use of it. I can now manage trips into the village (less than a mile each way) without it affecting my health. At the start even that was a struggle.

It's not a way to improve your health with this type of illness, but if used within a pacing routine then it's just another aspect of life to work with. In that sense, as pacing helps you feel better then hopefully you will be able to cycle a bit further too.

I even managed to start pedalling a little a couple of months ago, then I had a setback so am just wrapping myself up cosy and sitting there again now until my legs are less painful.

I couldn't imagine not having the bike now. This time last year I was housebound through not having any transport or being able to wait for the bus. I didn't get into the village under my own steam for 6 months and was reliant upon lifts. Now I have the freedom to 'pop' in whenever I want, weather and health permitting of course, lol.

I also bought a Walky Dog so I could take my dogs with me one at a time. They love going for a run with the bike and relish a ride in the Walky Basket even more!

 

[eddieo]

welcome to the forum!

I was only looking at this paratrooper bike the other day on you tube, very impressive, full suspension as well........

I am using the wifes new 705SE at the moment till I get a new bike....Yes the lack of suspension is an issue, you have to be more careful of what you ride over. I fitted a seat post suspension unit on hers it helps a bit.

 

[Orraman]

JEM40
Welcome to our gang.

It is good to know that you are able to enjoy a new freedom with your electric bike.

I find it difficult to convey to others the difference it has made for me.

Best wishes

Dave

 

[eddieo]

welcome to the forum!

I was only looking at this paratrooper bike the other day on you tube, very impressive, full suspension as well........

I am using the wifes new 705SE at the moment till I get a new bike....Yes the lack of suspension is an issue, you have to be more careful of what you ride over. I fitted a seat post suspension unit on hers it helps a bit.

I just remembered This has been discussed before and a member recommended "Schwalbe Big Apple Tyre" I suggest you start a thread re best tyres for comfort to check first.........

 

[theWoosh]

Solution - after one season

Hi,
I thought I would report back on the solution I found.

In the end I plumped for a Cyclone mid-drive motor (drives the chain) here , as this offered the most flexibility in terms of using the gears to get up hills.

The model was a 650w '3 chainwheel kit' which replaces the outer cog of the 3-cog chainset with one connected by a small chain to the motor that is mounted in front of it. This allows me to still access the lower 2 cogs and 14 gears (7 gears on the derailleur at the back).

I also purchased a 24v 30Amp LiFePo4 battery from the freindly Mr Ping here , which was the most expensive part of the bike.

I had luckily made contact with someone else locally who also had ME that had followed exactly the same thought process and bought the same kit - except they had the single cahinwheel kit, where there is only one front cog, and the motor drives the chain via a smaller cog inserted into the chain path. They had been recommended this combination of motor and battery, and I was able to ride the bike and check that it did the job, which was good because I was going to go for the 750w to be on the safe side.

In fact, after making wonderful use of the bike over the summer, I would say that we could probably have got away with the 500w model - it has more than enough power to go up the steepest hills (as long as you get into gear) without any pedalling needed at any time, and has a top speed of about 22 mph on the flat in top gear (this is a mountain bike with 26" wheels - a road bike with bigger wheels would go faster and still get up the hills I reckon) - though of course this has only been assessed for test purposes!

It wasn't completely straightforward to fit the 'kit' - some modifications where necessary to get everything in place and ship-shape, and it is still evolving. The bike is now very heavy (with topbox for battery, motor etc.) weighing in at about 30kg, so hard to lift and maneuver especially as one of the drawbacks of this motor system is that the bike cannot be moved backwards - the chain does not travel this way, and it puts strain on the motor mounting.

I also had some teething problems with the bike - getting the gears adjusted correctly took a while - and when the chain jams with 650 w pulling on it, it really jams! not easy to get untangled when you are on the moors! This seems to be sorted now. The other thing I will say is that the chain from the motor is exposed and again, if anything connected to your leg were to get jammed in it, this could be nasty - I am thinking of ways to build a chain guard to fit over this.

All in all though a fantastic bike - it really turns heads, will go up any hill at a fair trot, and has revolutionised my partners mobility, and the kind of leisure activities we are able to do together, as well as enabling her to travel round our town without having to get the car out.

 

[theWoosh]

BTW it has been ridden around 20 miles on a charge, and not died, so don't know what the range is - but I guess 24v @ 30 A = 720w which with a 650w motor should allow for an hour at continuous full power (don't know how efficient the motor and controller are).

In practice,most of the time it's running at a third or so of full power, or freewheeling, so we have got hours of riding from it - would be difficult if it did run out of charge, because we would have to get a lift or recharge or be stuck!

We'll have to do an endurance test one day and see how far it will go.

And on the issue of power - I got tired on my bike on a long ride one day in the new forest, so I tied a tow rope to my partners bike, and she towed me quite easily up about a 1 in 7 hill! great way to travel!

If there is any interest I could post some pics and construction info...