Disregarding UK pedelec laws

[vfr400]

Having reread the thread I get the impression that many of the contributors appear to believe that ebikes have a legal upper speed limit of 15.5mph. Full stop.
As I understand it the limit only applies to the speed at which assistance from the motor should cease. My legal assisted-bike motor cuts out at 15.5mph, I can continue to pedal, my speed rises, I am still riding legally. There is no upper limit to my speed other than the power of my legs. I am puzzled as to how any observer might know whether I am riding a legally or illegally assisted bike. I'm surprised that Pedelec members appear to be confused about this.
As to the wisdom of riding bicycles at higher speed - that's another matter.

Good point, but just to be pedantic, there's a 10% tolerance on the speed, so the actual illegal speed is above 17.1875 mph. Not a lot of people know that!

 

[KirstinS]

At risk of being mathematical fool and turning the pedantry up to 11.....is t it 17.05mph ?

10/100 of 15.5 being 1.55. Plus the 15.5 is 17.05mph

Good point, but just to be pedantic, there's a 10% tolerance on the speed, so the actual illegal speed is above 17.1875 mph. Not a lot of people know that!

 

[Michael Price]

I read somewhere that the 10% allowance is not actually a thing - I would assume that is the police actually tried to measure it they would have to do in a lab - and the power would be main thing they would look at
How could they measure it anyway without taking it away - which would require a reason for a suspicion that it was illegal - they couldn;t really ride it and follow in a car to measure the speed because it is almost impossible to detect when the motor cuts out. My motor is a bit noisy (in spite of the advertising!)

At risk of being mathematical fool and turning the pedantry up to 11.....is t it 17.05mph ?

10/100 of 15.5 being 1.55. Plus the 15.5 is 17.05mph

Is that actually official - does anyone have a link to an official thing that says so?
I have heard of it before - but only based on the say so of one manufacturer - can;t remember which one at the moment

 

[KirstinS]

Do a few searches and you'll see it is true.

Unless you read the Gov.uk own website which

Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance

Electric bikes meeting the EAPC regulations can be ridden on the road without being taxed, licensed or insured

www.gov.uk

Which states maximum motor output of 250w. Which unless I'm very much mistaken is utterly wrong (and most ebike suppliers too). Motors need to be rated at 250w and stamped as such not max output

Christ on an ebike! how the hell can people comply with this incomprehensible nonsense! Or I am just having a bad day...

 

[flecc]

I read somewhere that the 10% allowance is not actually a thing - I would assume that is the police actually tried to measure it they would have to do in a lab - and the power would be main thing they would look at
How could they measure it anyway without taking it away - which would require a reason for a suspicion that it was illegal - they couldn;t really ride it and follow in a car to measure the speed because it is almost impossible to detect when the motor cuts out. My motor is a bit noisy (in spite of the advertising!)

The 10% tolerance is a long standing convention for all road speed limits and is specified by the DfT. They have confirmed that this also applies to the pedelec assist speed limit

Is that actually official - does anyone have a link to an official thing that says so?

There is no link, the DfT confirmation was in an email, a common practice of theirs.

Applying the 10% tolerance to the assist speed limit has two possible answers. The EU law gives the speed limit as 25 kph, the UK slightly inaccurate interpretation in UK law is 15.5 mph. Hence the slightly differing outcomes.
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[flecc]

Do a few searches and you'll see it is true.

Unless you read the Gov.uk own website which

Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance

Electric bikes meeting the EAPC regulations can be ridden on the road without being taxed, licensed or insured

www.gov.uk

Which states maximum motor output of 250w. Which unless I'm very much mistaken is utterly wrong (and most ebike suppliers too). Motors need to be rated at 250w and stamped as such not max output

The UK law does specify Maximum power of 250 watts.

But the applicable technical standard EN15194 does not.
.

 

[KirstinS]

The UK law does specify Maximum power of 250 watts.

But the applicable technical standard EN15194 does not.
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Thank you fleck

I give up. I'm going back to sensible pragmaticism

 

[flecc]

Thank you fleck

I give up. I'm going back to sensible pragmaticism

It's just a historic difference, resulting from updating old law.

Our 1983 UK law when the power allowed was only 200 watts, specified it as a maximum as measured to BS 1727 rules. But when it was updated in April 2015 to 250 watts to align with the EU, the wording wasn't changed so maximum was still mentioned. However we, with France, also signed up to recognise the EU technical standard EN15194, so the flexibility of that is what really applies and there is no maximum to measure. The power is what the motor manufacturer says it is.

Your pragmatism is the correct way to view the pedelec law on all this nitty gritty. It's what the DfT practice!
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[vfr400]

Thank you fleck

I give up. I'm going back to sensible pragmaticism

Gotcha!

 

[Tarka]

The whole law on electric motor assisted cycles is a mess. Speed limited I can sort of understand but not power.
Even very powerful cars and motorcycles have to (should!) comply with speed limits.

I'm personally not interested in going fast, I'm out there to enjoy the countryside, but I need capacity and grunt to get up the big hills on a long ride.

 

[soundwave]

there is no power limit under the 15mph speed limit.

 

[KirstinS]

there is no power limit under the 15mph speed limit.

As long as the motor is stamped 250w, right

 

[youngoldbloke]

As I pointed out earlier, no speed limit above 15.5 mph either, it's just that assistance stops at that point.

 

[KirstinS]

As I pointed out earlier, no speed limit above 15.5 mph either, it's just that assistance stops at that point.

Yes, this is true . Many , including myself , refer to the speed limit when they really mean speed assist limit

 

[soundwave]

As long as the motor is stamped 250w, right

yes but the motors can pump out 3 times that under 15mph so the stamp is just stupid lol

 

[KirstinS]

yes but the motors can pump out 3 times that under 15mph so the stamp is just stupid lol

I get that but it is the difference between legal and not

 

[Michael Price]

The whole law on electric motor assisted cycles is a mess. Speed limited I can sort of understand but not power.
Even very powerful cars and motorcycles have to (should!) comply with speed limits.

I'm personally not interested in going fast, I'm out there to enjoy the countryside, but I need capacity and grunt to get up the big hills on a long ride.

Yes - I also cannot see why power is an issue - if the motor cuts out at the right speed then why does it matter how much power you have to get there. My old Powacycle only had a 180W motor - my new Raleigh with 250W is much better but when I was in the Lake District a few weeks ago a bit of extra grunt would have helped me get up a hill or two but I can't see how it would have an impact on other people.

I suppose more power would allow faster acceleration - but I can;t see why this is a problem as the cut off is still there

 

[soundwave]

my bike has a dongle and not been a problem for 5 years now

 

[Nealh]

Yes - I also cannot see why power is an issue - if the motor cuts out at the right speed then why does it matter how much power you have to get there. My old Powacycle only had a 180W motor - my new Raleigh with 250W is much better but when I was in the Lake District a few weeks ago a bit of extra grunt would have helped me get up a hill or two but I can't see how it would have an impact on other people.

I suppose more power would allow faster acceleration - but I can;t see why this is a problem as the cut off is still there

Your 250w motor probably did offer more grunt but you need a watt meter to see it.
Higher assist will have pulled more amps, if you have 36v and a15a controller then you would for a short time pull in region of 400+w.

 

[flecc]

Yes - I also cannot see why power is an issue - if the motor cuts out at the right speed then why does it matter how much power you have to get there.

The European Par liament reached the same conclusion about three years ago and forwarded a proposal to the EU Commission to change the law accordingly. The Commission rejected the proposal.

I can see their point. If an owner having bought a crank drive bike with treble the power then changes the gearing, they are then up into motorcycle speeds. At least the 250 watt motors when derestricted are limited to around 20 mph by the lack of enough power to propel faster.
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