DFT consultation on increase of 250W limit to 500W

[Wisper Bikes]

I believe this is a back door method of getting scooters legalised quickly and has nothing to do with Ebikes.

Its possible Pure Electric are behind this.

As a matter of interest I believe it represents a huge danger to the current status of EAPCs.

All the best, David

 

[flecc]

For example, you could have spoken to @Wisper Bikes about how they go to the trouble of going through a 250W LPM registration process for certain customers that need fully acting throttles. This is annoying to do, but allows users to have throttles within the law (beyond 4 mph). There is obviously a demand for this, so why not just change the law to make throttles available to all without jumping through unnecessary hoops?

But not as EAPCs. Although the DfT say they "consider" them as EAPCs, they are not. They are no longer only electric assisted when they can be driven by throttle alone, and the fact of Type Approval re-specifies them as motor vehicles in law. Just excused the bureaucracy in GB alone.

But David Miall is quite right, the origins of this is entirely to get e-scooters accepted with a legal short cut. If introduced it's likely to introduce a large number of new problems which could outweigh any gains.
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[mark sutton]

To meet a few points in one: In the one article i'm focused on those at the table in the highest level of discussion around the matter; those in the room on the day are what I can report on. The fact that nobody there, arguably bar Ben at PedalMe, had much to say on the need for 500W is, likely not representative of the entirety of the market. I know it's not, you only need spend 5 mins on any given forum to see that. Yet the fact remains, no hard line pro 500W advocate has stepped forward publicly and given their view, or at least nobody in the room in Parliament had yet come across/was willing to share the source. We can speculate and give opinion til the cows come home, of course, but that's outside of my remit and, dare i say, would call more criticism above and beyond that given of the facts of the day.

As an FYI - articles exist on CE that do explain things like throttles, type approval, modification/tampering etc. All covered off individually, with expert insights, but not featured in detail within each piece written.

 

[jamesporritt]

As an FYI - articles exist on CE that do explain things like throttles, type approval, modification/tampering etc. All covered off individually, with expert insights, but not featured in detail within each piece written.

Words matter. There is no excuse for this inaccuracy:

"The Department for Transport’s consultation on whether or not e-bike motors should be permitted in the UK to put out 500W of power"

https://www.cyclingelectric.com/in-depth/500w-e-bike-consultation-update

 

[Az.]

To meet a few points in one:

For a start Mark, you should do some research. This is not your first article where you demonstrate total lack of understanding of what you write about. There is enough confusion about motor power as it is and what you write only makes it worse.
I strongly recommend to familiarize yourself with what Flecc has written on subject of EAPC law.

"
The government proposes 2 changes to existing regulations:

• to amend the legal definition of how EAPCs are classified so that the maximum continuous rated power of the electric motor must not exceed 500 watts instead of 250 watts as set out in the current regulations
• to allow ‘twist and go’ EAPCs to have throttle assistance up to 15.5mph (25km/h) without the need for type approval

"

It has little to do with motor power output.

 

[Az.]

If introduced it's likely to introduce a large number of new problems which could outweigh any gains.

Why did you support proposed changes then?

 

[saneagle]

For a start Mark, you should do some research. This is not your first article where you demonstrate total lack of understanding of what you write about. There is enough confusion about motor power as it is and what you write only makes it worse.
I strongly recommend to familiarize yourself with what Flecc has written on subject of EAPC law.

"
The government proposes 2 changes to existing regulations:

• to amend the legal definition of how EAPCs are classified so that the maximum continuous rated power of the electric motor must not exceed 500 watts instead of 250 watts as set out in the current regulations
• to allow ‘twist and go’ EAPCs to have throttle assistance up to 15.5mph (25km/h) without the need for type approval

"

It has little to do with motor power output.

Most people get the wrong idea about what's allowed because they don't understand the difference between "rated" power and "output" power.

Rated power is nebulous. There is no rule for how it should be determined. A manufacturer can under-rate a motor as far as they want, like take their 1000w motor and stamp 250w on it. In that condition it will pass every certification test.

The regulation states maximum rated power is 250w. When they add the word "continuous", it's meaningless because rated power doesn't change. It's just a number on a piece of paper or label (specification) and it's just what some engineer or similar decides.

Output power is absolute and measurable, but there is no regulation for it as far as UK ebikes are concerned. Peak or continuous makes no difference because they have no influence in the certification nor regulations.

 

[mark sutton]

For a start Mark, you should do some research. This is not your first article where you demonstrate total lack of understanding of what you write about. There is enough confusion about motor power as it is and what you write only makes it worse.
I strongly recommend to familiarize yourself with what Flecc has written on subject of EAPC law.

"
The government proposes 2 changes to existing regulations:

• to amend the legal definition of how EAPCs are classified so that the maximum continuous rated power of the electric motor must not exceed 500 watts instead of 250 watts as set out in the current regulations
• to allow ‘twist and go’ EAPCs to have throttle assistance up to 15.5mph (25km/h) without the need for type approval

"

It has little to do with motor power output.

I'm not one for forum debates anymore, but perhaps rather than copy and pasting the Government page you could detail yourself the 'many' errors, for which you have not yet articulated one example.

My presumption is the irritation here is down to the difference between peak and continuous? Admittedly my work is rarely perfect, but seemingly folk here have been able to read the piece and understand it straight away, nonetheless. A more casual reader, the type the bike industry so direly needs to attract, could do with jargon-light explanations. Reasonably, a newbie need only really know to not buy a motor advertised in black and white above 250W, learnings about peak power can follow, if they decide they need to know. Most won't care, until such time they become die-hard enthusiasts.

That said, i'm one for learning about my potential audience, existing and incoming, so I'll take on board points, if made eloquently and politely. I suspect, though, that your issue might be with the subject matter as a whole. Plenty of passionate opinions in both camps, but pays to remember that the source of the debate comes largely from a Government incapable of keeping pace with evolving technology and transport trends.

 

[saneagle]

more casual reader, the type the bike industry so direly needs to attract, could do with jargon-light explanations. Reasonably, a newbie need only really know to not buy a motor advertised in black and white above 250W, learnings about peak power can follow, if they decide they need to know. Most won't care, until such time they become die-hard enthusiasts.t trends.

This is the main point. When we get 500w allowed, the only thing that will change is the label, not the power or anything else. They're already 500w motors under most normal definitions.

.
My presumption is the irritation here is down to the difference between peak and continuous? Admittedly my work is i perfect, but seemingly folk here have been able to read the piece and understand it straight away, nonetheless.

That's adding to the problem and shows a misunderstanding. See my previous post for explanation.

 

[Az.]

I'm not one for forum debates anymore, but perhaps rather than copy and pasting the Government page you could detail yourself the 'many' errors, for which you have not yet articulated one example.

Please direct me to your other articles where you write about power and I will point out as many errors as you like. I remember reading one article of yours full of errors, but I am struggling to find it now.

My presumption is the irritation here is down to the difference between peak and continuous?

No. It is about difference between power output you write about and continuous rated power as specified by manufacturer . It doesn't look like you understand the difference. Apples and bananas. Seneagle tried to explain it once again. I really appreciate his patience.

Don't take it as a personal attack. We could use somebody so outspoken like you who would rather educate people than spread confusion.

 

[soundwave]

a ebike motor can output as much power as it likes as long as it is under the 15mph limit, pretty simple tbh or my bosch bike could not go up any hill.

 

[lenny]

My presumption is the irritation here is down to the difference between peak and continuous?

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/pedelec-law-the-details.37594/

 

[Craiggor 2]

I've long been of the same opinion but this new proposal seems to indicate the government are determined to get higher powered e-scooters in with EAPCs.

Easy in the EU for the e-scooters since the two and three wheeled type approval law has Exemption J, meaning they are not considered to be motor vehicles:

(j)	vehicles not equipped with at least one seating position;

That is also our law, but as usual the 1835 Locomotive Act demands separate usage law to enable that here.
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But that is discriminatory against disabled and unfit people they need to sit down. I think this is more to do with escooters than 500w e-bikes. You can’t have escooters without legal throttles on Bicycles and when we have that escooters,eskateboards,eroller skates and 15.5 mph mobility scooters all become legal by default.

 

[soundwave]

you cant get a ebike on the uk mobility but they said they are looking in to it as i think in Scotland you can get them.

 

[flecc]

But that is discriminatory against disabled and unfit people they need to sit down.

No it isn't, since as well as exemption (J) there is also exemption (b) Vehicles exclusively intended for the handicapped and exemption (k) providing for low seating points on LIe bicycle based vehicles, so a choice of options

And anyway claims of such discrimination are too often unrealistic, it's the handicap that is the discrimination, not the provisions we make for others with wider abilities. Are escalators and travellators discriminatory because they have no seats?

You can’t have escooters without legal throttles on Bicycles and when we have that escooters,eskateboards,eroller skates and 15.5 mph mobility scooters all become legal by default.

Actually you can and have, thanks to an existing cunning piece of legal wording. The difference between allowing assistance up to 15.5 mph but ceasing at 15.5mph (EAPCs) and allowing 15.5mph (e-scooters and L1e-A)
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[flecc]

Why did you support proposed changes then?

I've already said, recognising the high demand which isn't going to go away, plus the fact that the change has long been de facto anyway and we are obviously never going to get the policing to stop that.

History proves it, the rise from 200 watts to 250 watts happened accidentally without anyone in authority approving it. The DfT simply gave into it after 12 years. What may happen now with 500 watts and throttles would be a de facto further giving in to what is already commonplace.
.

 

[soundwave]

Jellyfish chips will be on menus by 2050 as the human diet changes

The Future of Food Report portrays long-term analyses of food and agricultural systems all over the world and predicts what we might be consuming in the decades to come.

www.dailymail.co.uk

'By 2169, we may well see people scanning their weekly statistics via the embedded chip in their skin, which will in turn send an automatic status read to Sainsbury's.

People will be fitted with microchips to determine what foods they need to eat to stay healthy and be fed through 'skin patches', keeping them topped up with nutrients and vitamins.

they can fook right off ill eat the fkn dog if i have too

 

[Woosh]

I've already said, recognising the high demand which isn't going to go away, plus the fact that the change has long been de facto anyway and we are obviously never going to get the policing to stop that.

it seems to me that the current law is adequate.
Proposing changes under the 10 minute bill rules is a waste of time.
If any MP wants to help the e-scooter importers then they should declare their interest.
Personally, I think e-scooter riders risk their life if they ride on the main road and risk collision with pedestrians if they don't. The only winners are importers.

 

[soundwave]

they sell e scooters in currys lol

https://www.currys.co.uk/products/razor-e300s-electric-folding-scooter-grey-10251154.html

 

[Woosh]

they sell e scooters in currys lol

Greedy. People may even store their e-scooters in their bedrooms and never wonder what battery cells are in them. I once bought a self balancing two wheel thingy by curiosity. After letting the kids play with it for a few days, I opened it to have a look.It was shoddily wired, Chisese pouch cells in a blue shrink tube. No BMS. I took the battery out to recycle it and binned the thingy.
A lot of stuff you get on amazon are fire risks. Nobody bothers anymore.