Devil's advocate

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
As you say Vikki, we need an undiscovered super element from space. :D

The trouble with the elements we have is that there simply aren't anywhere near enough usable ions available to electrically rival fossil fuel energy weight/bulk densities.

In fact electric cars can easily rival and better ic ones if the battery is ignored, so considering the huge costs of building motorways and other modern roads, perhaps we could explore the small added costs of an overhead current pickup method so successfully used by trolleybuses for many years.
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billadie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 27, 2010
291
48
Tewkesbury
Is the 83MPG for the Skoda the result of a reputable road test or is the legally required `combined' consumption figure? If it is the latter it would be interesting to know what the actual consumption is, in real life, including traffic jams, hills and getting stuck behind cyclists (electrified or not).

I am not so certain that real life figures, especially in cities, are that different from what was achievable in small cars in the late 50s. We have got more complex cars requiring power to run heating/power steering/air con or whatever. We have more congestion to reduce speed and efficiency. Are there any comparative tests of a 1959 Mini v a 2010 model driving, say 5 to 10 miles during the rush hour?


Bill

Smarta LX, Urban Mover UM24 & 2002 Seat Leon
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
I always do this.....take away a third from their fictional IMO urban figures.

Soooo if they say 60, expect 40 and you wont be disappointed!:p
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Is the 83MPG for the Skoda the result of a reputable road test or is the legally required `combined' consumption figure? If it is the latter it would be interesting to know what the actual consumption is, in real life, including traffic jams, hills and getting stuck behind cyclists (electrified or not).

I am not so certain that real life figures, especially in cities, are that different from what was achievable in small cars in the late 50s. We have got more complex cars requiring power to run heating/power steering/air con or whatever. We have more congestion to reduce speed and efficiency. Are there any comparative tests of a 1959 Mini v a 2010 model driving, say 5 to 10 miles during the rush hour?


Bill

Smarta LX, Urban Mover UM24 & 2002 Seat Leon
My experience is that many have much better capabilities now Bill. Certainly if driven very hard they can be little better than cars from earlier decades, but when a little care is exercised they attain far better mpg than the likes of Minis, two of which I had.

My Fabia petrol 1.2 could reliably return 47 mpg on a run from South London to Dorset, including the motorways cruised at 65, and the Nissan Qashqai 1.6 I have now actually matched that on the same run when I did one trip at 65/70 cruising, which surprised me since it's far from a light car. Both those when driven hard lose nearly all the advantage though.
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eTim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 19, 2009
607
2
Andover, Hants.
The new Fabia Estate costs only £13 740. ONLY!!! People who say things like this don't live in the world that I live in!

Derrick - Llanberis

Yes the Skoda is expensive, I have managed to get a discount of £2,600 off the list price though which brings it down closer to it's real worth. I never said it ONLY cost £13K.

In 3 years time, this type of vehicle will be worth around 50% of it's new value, so mere mortals will be able to afford one second hand. I am lucky in that I can justify the cost because I will run it as a company car, also I will save around £7,000 in fuel plus £800 in road tax over 3 years when compared against my current inefficient vehicle, based on 15,000+ miles a year.

15,000+ miles a year is a reality for thousands of working people and families, so depending on what your life circumstances are, the real world could be anything. Another point I was trying to make was that lots of companies provide a company car as a benefit to their employees. In the past these have been high value high polluting status symbols such as BMW, Mercs, Volvos etc, expensive to buy and run, for the employee there has always been a personal tax charge (around £3600 average) per annum. The government provides a tax incentive to choose a lower cost, low polluting, efficient car over a more expensive wasteful car. Such a car could be the Skoda Fabia, or the equivalent, VW Polo, Ford Fiesta etc. I would have chosen an electric car, but their range and high price means they are not feasible (at the moment). The tax charge on the Skoda is 13% providing a personal tax charge to the employee of only £350 per year (basic rate tax payer), this is about the cheapest way of running a car I've ever heard of!

I'm not expecting to get 83mpg myself, these are official figures that are provided for every new vehicle and tested by the appropriate official body (I think it is the combined average from 94mpg extra-urban and 61mpg urban), there has to be a baseline from which to compare all vehicles somewhere. But given the official figures, I would expect to be averaging 70-75mpg, still not bad, hopefully. I will be able to update you all later in the year when I take delivery.

In my part of the country there is very little congestion, most roads are dual carriageway and country with a bit of motorway thrown in, I hardly see a traffic jam day-to-day, so this car, at this point in time, in my circumstances is right for ME. It may not be right for everyone, what world do you live in Derrick ?

PS - I know this is getting a bit off topic, however my original post was related to the OP's debate opening on the economies of ebikes. My perspective is based on my real-world experience in looking for a new, efficient, low polluting, money saving car vs an ebike, I don't own ebikes to save money because I can't save enough vs car costs because of my personal circumstances. Therefore my reasons for owning ebikes maybe totally different to the majority of ebike owners - right, I'll get me coat!!
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
The new Fabia Estate costs only £13 740. ONLY!!! People who say things like this don't live in the world that I live in!

Derrick - Llanberis
The answer Derrick is to locate someone like me who does only tiny annual mileages.

My just over five year old Fabia had only done 5600 miles so was barely run in! It sold at the book £3300 for a perfect unmarked example at that age, so a near new car with all parts original as it rolled out from manufacture.

My best bargain sold was a 10.5 year old Fiat Tipo witb 14,000 on the clock. In near perfect condition it sold for the customary £500 for a car at that age, so many years of effectively depreciation free motoring for someone.

My current two cars, garage housed Nissan Qashqai and Chevrolet Matiz town car are both around 2.5 years old and with a bit over 2000 miles on each. At some future time, don't know when, there will be two very happy new owners.
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Gaynor

Pedelecer
Nov 28, 2006
152
2
battery £500 so that is £4.80 a week approximately
I started pondering (like you do) and thought, at 500 quid for a battery, lasting 2 years, costing £4.80 weekly (Wow, it's more pricey than I thought, being that im terrible at maths) but I can see that those that use their bikes for commuting purposes, it would then save money, also even when you park a car it sometimes costs twice that.

I wanted to ask if this is the same if you are not using your battery for a few weeks, does it still lose its Longevity (sp) and cost you.

I charged my battery fully before it got sent to Onbike, so I guess the power will gradually go down....
 

Vikki

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 12, 2009
442
2
Think of it like fuel but you only buy it once every couple of years :eek:
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
I wanted to ask if this is the same if you are not using your battery for a few weeks, does it still lose its Longevity (sp) and cost you.
Yes, current lithium batteries do die with time as well as use. Lightly used they will still only last perhaps 2.5 or possible just make it to 3 years.

If you have it out of use, you must charge your new battery at least every two months whether it needs it or not, or it will die prematurely. Something to watch in the winter.
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Bandit

Pedelecer
Mar 13, 2009
44
0
The issue for electric cars is how best to generate, store and replenish the electricity. Fossil fuel is a hard act to follow in respect of storage and (relatively) safe and rapid replenishment, but burning it certainly depletes a finite resource, and possibly changes the atmosphere in undesirable ways. Meanwhile, electric propulsion is still efficient, even when the electricity comes from on-board generators, so short-term attention will be on the problems of electrical storage and refuelling.

So while the industry, the market and the consumers work on improving electrical storage and refuelling, perhaps governments can make a start on electrifying motorways and trunk roads so that electric cars can travel along them without depleting their on-board batteries. These can then be used for "local" journeys and replenished wherever and whenever they are parked, (where they can also provide valuable grid backup).
 

thunderblue

Pedelecer
Aug 4, 2009
116
1
Manchester
My current two cars, garage housed Nissan Qashqai and Chevrolet Matiz town car are both around 2.5 years old and with a bit over 2000 miles on each. At some future time, don't know when, there will be two very happy new owners.
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Hey Flecc,

I have the KIA Cee'd estate with 7 year warranty, but in a few years time when I am looking to change, please can I have first refusal on the Nissan? ;)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
Hey Flecc,

I have the KIA Cee'd estate with 7 year warranty, but in a few years time when I am looking to change, please can I have first refusal on the Nissan? ;)
I've put a wordpad file with a link to this post into my personal folder. At such time as I shift it I'll get in touch by PM to give you first refusal if you are still in the forum. Alternatively PM me an email address to add to the file. :)
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thunderblue

Pedelecer
Aug 4, 2009
116
1
Manchester
I've put a wordpad file with a link to this post into my personal folder. At such time as I shift it I'll get in touch by PM to give you first refusal if you are still in the forum. Alternatively PM me an email address to add to the file. :)
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Many thanks ... pm on the way :D
 

Barnowl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 18, 2008
954
1
Battery toothbrush - Not bad
Battery Fluff remover - Absolute rubbish
Battery hens - Free range sounds much kinder
Battery Weatherstation - Doubtful
Battery mouse/Keyboard - A pain
Battery mobile phone - Evil neccessity
Battery shavers = Questionable
Battery Lawnbower - Noo Waay
Battery car - Hah Hah
Pedelec - Marvellous Contraption. Marriage made in heaven. Why haven't more people got one?