cycling haters petitions afoot

[minexplorer]

Havent been on here for a while but came for a look to see whats being said about these new petitions. Maybe ive looked in the wrong place but i cant find anything. Cyclists electric and not need to take these seriously. Its the old tax insurance number plate stuff again,even for the non electric.As well as a proficiency test before you can use a pushbike. Now ive ridden many days of a week and ive ridden for periods of just once or twice a month and i dont think someone should have to stump up a tax and insurance all year, to only occasionally go for a ride...or at all. Nor do i think at 52 and experienced with pushbikes since childhood,should i have to take a patronising test!
As usual the arguments are ALL cycalists are knocking people over on pavements and ALL cycalists ride through red lights ALL the time.
It only took one mad gun owner out of a million law abiding ones to see UK shooting sports decimated. And another 10yrs later to repeat more of the same.It only took one grieving man and his MP to have many types of knife and martial arts equipment banned. How many speed humps have been installed because of an occasional youngster speeding.Or disabled and elderly people made to balance on a pole or stand at bus stops because of an occasional vandal burning a seat.
All im saying is beware as the antis are always up to this and succeed because of complacency.One of the petitions already has 32,000.

 

[joelectric]

Don't think using the analogy of banning guns and knives in the UK helps the argument here.

Guns and knives are quite rightly strictly controlled here, how many Dunblane tragedies should we have waited for before acting? nonsense point.

 

[mike killay]

Don't think using the analogy of banning guns and knives in the UK helps the argument here.

Guns and knives are quite rightly strictly controlled here, how many Dunblane tragedies should we have waited for before acting? nonsense point.

It's not the banning of guns and knives per se but an illustration of just how a handful of people can push MP's into banning something.
Personally, I don't think a restriction on cyclists in any form is likely.
Unlike weapons, bikes are good for the general health of the population.

 

[soundwave]

did not need any licence to buy that and it is a live sword and plenty to buy on gun star web site as well as hand guns and machineguns but you need a section 1 firearm licence to buy those.

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[RoadieRoger]

The Comments on the Mail Online is always full of Cycle Haters whenever the topic is anything to do with Cycling . They usually say that Cyclists need taxing , insuring , training , licencing , banning on roads , etc. I try to spend some time ticking , red lining and sometimes commenting to balance things up a bit . Judging by the column inches concerning the glee with which the DM has greeted the scrapping of the Covid Cycle Lanes in London , we are fighting a losing battle .

 

[flecc]

Havent been on here for a while but came for a look to see whats being said about these new petitions. Maybe ive looked in the wrong place but i cant find anything. Cyclists electric and not need to take these seriously. Its the old tax insurance number plate stuff again,even for the non electric.As well as a proficiency test before you can use a pushbike. Now ive ridden many days of a week and ive ridden for periods of just once or twice a month and i dont think someone should have to stump up a tax and insurance all year, to only occasionally go for a ride...or at all. Nor do i think at 52 and experienced with pushbikes since childhood,should i have to take a patronising test!
As usual the arguments are ALL cycalists are knocking people over on pavements and ALL cycalists ride through red lights ALL the time.
It only took one mad gun owner out of a million law abiding ones to see UK shooting sports decimated. And another 10yrs later to repeat more of the same.It only took one grieving man and his MP to have many types of knife and martial arts equipment banned. How many speed humps have been installed because of an occasional youngster speeding.Or disabled and elderly people made to balance on a pole or stand at bus stops because of an occasional vandal burning a seat.
All im saying is beware as the antis are always up to this and succeed because of complacency.One of the petitions already has 32,000.

The Comments on the Mail Online is always full of Cycle Haters whenever the topic is anything to do with Cycling . They usually say that Cyclists need taxing , insuring , training , licencing , banning on roads , etc. I try to spend some time ticking , red lining and sometimes commenting to balance things up a bit . Judging by the column inches concerning the glee with which the DM has greeted the scrapping of the Covid Cycle Lanes in London , we are fighting a losing battle .

You have no need to worry at all about this, the petitions will always fail.

Governments worldwide including our own are very firmly on a pro-cycling agenda and have long been resisting anything that might deter cycling in any way. The best example of this is cycle helmet wearing. There's been repeated determined attempts by the nanny state brigade to make them compulsory since there are very obvious benefits to that, but every time the government of either persuasion has solidly blocked any such move,

The do-gooders thought they were onto a winner with a private members bill to enforce wearing for children since they couldn't envisage any government blocking that. But they did by firmly refusing to allow any parliamentary time to discuss it, effectively gagging all MPs on the subject.

And the same happened in the EU when the EU Commission promoted compulsory cycling helmets for all bicycles. The strength of the reaction against them shocked them so much they've forgotten the subject ever since.

The reason all authorities won't allow any impedence to cycling is the Australia versus Netherlands example. Australia introduced compulsory cycling helmets and promptly became the nation with the lowest cycling rate in the world, 1%. The Netherlands where virtually no-one wears a helmet or preaches about them has the world's highest rate of cycling, 70% of the population cycle daily.

The message for governments is clear, hands off cycling, and they all heed it since they want to maximise cycling and minimise car driving.
.

 

[Edward Elizabeth]

The antis wont win. The cars days are numbered. Dino fuelled car sales are to be banned in 9 years, and there arent enough rare earth metals to replace every ICE powered car like for like with an electric one - its a physical impossibility. I'm an industrial geologist, so know first hand about the availability of such strategic materials.

That being the case the availability of cars will reduce, and there wont be enough to go around. That will inevitably push prices upwards so only the wealthy will be able to afford them. Therefore, whether Joe Public likes it or not, the days of unfettered personal automobile ownership and use are numbered beyond a shodow of a doubt.

Just keep riding, keep at it, keep your heads down and your pedals turning and things will go our way. 20 years itll be like a different planet on the roads, and us early adopters (or those who have been simply riding all their lives) will feel less pain that those forced out of their cars kicking and screaming.

The minority is very vocal, but they are a minority, the sort of people who would rather sit in a traffic jam for an hour than ride a bike for 10 minutes. The sort of peole who have made the average car journey in Grrater Manchester less than 1km, a thousand metres, in length. That is disgraceful behaviour, and they know it, but only bone idle laziness prevents them acknowledging it. Be patient - in out lieftimes it will change, and we will be laughing last...and thus laughing loudest.

 

[flecc]

The antis wont win. The cars days are numbered. Dino fuelled car sales are to be banned in 9 years, and there arent enough rare earth metals to replace every ICE powered car like for like with an electric one - its a physical impossibility. I'm an industrial geologist, so know first hand about the availability of such strategic materials.

That being the case the availability of cars will reduce, and there wont be enough to go around. That will inevitably push prices upwards so only the wealthy will be able to afford them. Therefore, whether Joe Public likes it or not, the days of unfettered personal automobile ownership and use are numbered beyond a shodow of a doubt.

There's lots of truth in this, but don't underestimate the appeal of cars and the political strength of motorists. The changes will take far longer than many think.

People will still be buying new petrol and diesel cars for another ten years and new petrol-electric hybrids for 15 years. They have an average life of 22 years, so that takes us out 37 years from now.

Rare earths will be found in far greater quantities, the gloomy view is like all the failed peak oil forecasts of it running out, instead turning into far more oil than we can use today.

Lithium battery recycling which has barely got off the ground so far will be universal.

Other battery technologies will be discovered and known ones developed, and batteries aren't even necessary for the e-cars using hydrogen fuel cells which are only just appearing now.

In other words, the 80% of members of this forum who are already in the second half of life will sadly never be free of too many cars for comfort during their cycling lives.
.

 

[Edward Elizabeth]

The changes will start to happen after 2030, because the law says it will, and thats simply that.

All the wishful thinking and pig headed obstinance in the world won't suddely make new supplies of cobalt, indium, neodymium etc appear at the factory gates in sufficient volumes to build a replacement e car for every dino one.

There will not be enough e cars to go around. Personal car ownership will become an unusual situation. Reduced availability will increase prices and will make what few cars there are unattainable for those that aren't moderately wealthy. These are simple, unavoidable inevitabilities.

The population could make it happen a lot quicker if they wanted to, but there's nothing that can to to delay it.

 

[flecc]

The changes will start to happen after 2030, because the law says it will, and thats simply that.

This law has had three versions. If there is a car and van shortage it will go into reverse. Motorists are too big a cash cow for that not to happen, especially now with our likely long term economic difficulties.

All the wishful thinking and pig headed obstinance in the world won't suddely make new supplies of cobalt, indium, neodymium etc appear at the factory gates in sufficient volumes to build a replacement e car for every dino one.

We don't need to replace every car for a very long time yet. We will only need to replace those that have to be replaced, rather than replacing as unnecessarily as we have been doing.

There will not be enough e cars to go around. Personal car ownership will become an unusual situation. Reduced availability will increase prices and will make what few cars there are unattainable for those that aren't moderately wealthy. These are simple, unavoidable inevitabilities.

There will be some changes such as some increase in prices, but you are failing to understand every aspect of the position and grossly exaggerating the consequences. Just see this quote:

“The automotive industry will continue to rely on lithium for some time, but one technology doesn’t suit every application. Most people go less than 40 miles a day in their car, and in such cases a smaller battery pack is fine, and a sodium-ion battery can be used instead of lithium. It’s just about changing perceptions.”

We've already had working for companies two e-car makes and one light truck model with sodium-salt batteries and sodium is abundant and cheap. If rare earths become unavailable you'll see these re-appear and other technologies appear.

And rare earths are not rare, just concentrated in politically difficult places or too expensive at present to access. Those are soluble with political resolve and acceptance of higher prices.
.

 

[mike killay]

I am pretty sure that personal weather proofed (i.e. Some sort of car) will continue long into the future.
A mobile workforce is a modern necessity, and any reduction of its mobility will affect GDP.
Public Transport is a non starter, it is slow, does not go exactly where the traveller needs to go, and has to run to a schedule, hence it is quite frequently empty.
Please, if you live in London, don't reply about integrated services.
Many workers do not live in high density areas.
Four buses a day is not practical and in any case they often run completely empty where I live.
In essence, you are using a large single decker to move the same number of people that a couple of small cars could.

 

[Wicky]

Will Cornwall seek independence... ;-)

Cornwall lithium deposits 'globally significant'

Cornish Lithium has been testing grades of the metal in deep geothermal waters near Redruth.

www.bbc.co.uk

Could Cornwall see a Lithium battery revolution?

British Lithium is prospecting in the county to find economically viable seams of the element.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[flecc]

Public Transport is a non starter, it is slow, does not go exactly where the traveller needs to go, and has to run to a schedule, hence it is quite frequently empty.
Please, if you live in London, don't reply about integrated services.
Many workers do not live in high density areas.
Four buses a day is not practical and in any case they often run completely empty where I live.
In essence, you are using a large single decker to move the same number of people that a couple of small cars could.

Under utilisation is just as bad here in London Mike. Our South London route 357 for example used to be single deckers running from very early morning to well after midnight, much of the time the driver chaufeurring one person or even on a solo private jaunt along our quiet end of the route. For operational reasons TfL switched the operator. So now the driver chauffeurs one person or just himself much of the time in a double decker. The adjacent 433 route is the same most of the day, though those are single deckers. These are not four buses a day, most of the time both run a 15 minute service.
.

 

[GSV3MiaC]

When self drive cars actually work you would just whistle one up from the pool when you needed it, saving on garage space, etc. Bit of a pain that you can't leave your gloves in the glove compartment, or your boots in the boot, but I expect we could cope.

 

[mike killay]

This Act of Parliament is only aspirational.
Very few of the MPs who voted it in will be in power in 2030.
Legislators cannot bind future generations.
I am sure that the 18th Century politicians who enacted the Sunday Observance laws could not conceive that a time would come when their laws would be ridiculed, then reviled and finally revoked.
So it may yet be with this Act.

 

[mike killay]

Under utilisation is just as bad here in London Mike. Our South London route 357 for example used to be single deckers running from very early morning to well after midnight, much of the time the driver chaufeurring one person or even on a solo private jaunt along our quiet end of the route. For operational reasons TfL switched the operator. So now the driver chauffeurs one person or just himself much of the time in a double decker. The adjacent 433 route is the same most of the day, though those are single deckers. These are not four buses a day, most of the time both run a 15 minute service.
.

Thanks Flecc for a sensible London perspective. Obviously public transport where you live is nearly as inefficient and polluting as here in semi rural Wales.
Our main problem, besides far wetter weather than most of the UK is hills. Ok for the fit and healthy to bike it, but so many people need to make short car journeys if they are getting on a bit, have various health problems etc. Also, take the young Mum with two Primary School children.
Thanks to our Labour Council insisting on mixing all the population it is not uncommon for two siblings to attend different schools some miles apart. Of the 3 junior schools nearest to me, one is half a mile, the next is 2 miles and the third 2 and a half miles. They are not linearly spaced but for analogy consider a clock face, your home is in the centre, each school is at a different number (In fact 6, 2 and 9)
There are no buses, to walk that distance is impossible within the time constraints, so a car is the only answer.
Yes, cars will continue, if as the above poster claims, there will not be enough batteries available, then Parliament will delay the 2030 date, I have no doubt about that.

 

[minexplorer]

Don't think using the analogy of banning guns and knives in the UK helps the argument here.

Guns and knives are quite rightly strictly controlled here, how many Dunblane tragedies should we have waited for before acting? nonsense point.

the point being complacency amongst the effected party i was making

 

[minexplorer]

You have no need to worry at all about this, the petitions will always fail.

Governments worldwide including our own are very firmly on a pro-cycling agenda and have long been resisting anything that might deter cycling in any way. The best example of this is cycle helmet wearing. There's been repeated determined attempts by the nanny state brigade to make them compulsory since there are very obvious benefits to that, but every time the government of either persuasion has solidly blocked any such move,

The do-gooders thought they were onto a winner with a private members bill to enforce wearing for children since they couldn't envisage any government blocking that. But they did by firmly refusing to allow any parliamentary time to discuss it, effectively gagging all MPs on the subject.

And the same happened in the EU when the EU Commission promoted compulsory cycling helmets for all bicycles. The strength of the reaction against them shocked them so much they've forgotten the subject ever since.

The reason all authorities won't allow any impedence to cycling is the Australia versus Netherlands example. Australia introduced compulsory cycling helmets and promptly became the nation with the lowest cycling rate in the world, 1%. The Netherlands where virtually no-one wears a helmet or preaches about them has the world's highest rate of cycling, 70% of the population cycle daily.

The message for governments is clear, hands off cycling, and they all heed it since they want to maximise cycling and minimise car driving.
.

well i hope so flecc. i came across this on Talkradio. Several of the presenters were the creators of one of the petitions and are spending a lot of time making their argument sound very persuasive to non cycalists like them.

 

[Wicky]

The future looks er interesting.... like the love child of Clive Sinclair and an electric egg!

 

[flecc]

well i hope so flecc. i came across this on Talkradio. Several of the presenters were the creators of one of the petitions and are spending a lot of time making their argument sound very persuasive to non cycalists like them.

The same was true of the attempt I mentioned to get compulsory cycle helmets for children, very persuasive and after all, who could possibly argue against protecting children?

But the government did once again, gagging the House of Commons.

The mood of governments everywhere is the same, somewhat anti-car and very pro-bicycle.
.