Aaarrrg i just dont understand any of it (groan) i just hope if i get a prob. you guys will be there for me ..!I'm sorry to hear that the Beastamatic is temporarily dead. I'm sure that it'll be alive and well again soon, but in the meantime its spirit will live on in the Beastamatic II.
Mine arrived today - much quicker than I expected. Here's what I got.
It took me about 20 mins to put it together. I was quite impressed by most of it, but it had one problem that need sorting: The front wheel bearings were miles too tight, so I set them right. I had difficulty adjusting the stem height because I couldn't loosen the hex screws at the side, but I managed to knock it up with a mallet after removing the locking screw underneath. The only disappointing thing was the rear drum brake, which means 160mm between drop-outs - much wider than all my spare motors, but, hopefully, if I smoke a motor, I can just change the internals.
Tomorrow, I will test it in standard form and see if I can get a measure for its climbing ability and speed on the flat.
While waiting for it to charge, I opened up the controller cavity, took out the controller and had a look inside. My first thought was how tiny it is, and it's rated at a mere 6A. Here's a picture of it compared to my 36v 30A controller.
Inside I found that the capacitors are rated at 50v. That's right on the limit for a 12s lipo pack, but should be ok for a 10s pack. What does anyone think. The FETs are 80NF70: 68v, 98A, 190w, so should be ok for quite an increase on their present situation as long as they can be kept cool. The regulator is a PJ317, which has an output od 1.5 to 37v and a differential between Vin and Vout of 40v. What is it's normal Vout - anyone know? NRG?
I need to get a new wattmeter/ammeter before I start modifying the controller, so that I can see the differences, so It'll be a couple of days before I do that.
Steps I want to try:
1. Solder shunt
2. 15amp controller mounted externally plus 36v battery
3. 15 amp controller and 44v battery
4. 15amp controller soldered shunt and 44v battery
5. Throw it off a cliff and claim the electric bike speed record at 150mph.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
Classic thread guys - first rule of engineering delivery - price / performance :0)
So solder the shunt - further along the solder goes = more power, but more risk and uprate the batts/BMS according to pocket?
I ordered one yesterday for £399 :0)
Bike over-clocking! :0))
So solder the shunt - further along the solder goes = more power, but more risk and uprate the batts/BMS according to pocket?
I ordered one yesterday for £399 :0)
Bike over-clocking! :0))
Guess you all must know this guy's work?:
Cyclamatic Power Plus with 48v ( Stock Hub 250w) commuting - YouTube
Show's just how practical it is...
Cyclamatic Power Plus with 48v ( Stock Hub 250w) commuting - YouTube
Show's just how practical it is...
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
After all my experiments I think the optimum is a 36v battery with the original controller and the shunt soldered for about 18amps. You can get a 36v battery that slots straight in for about £225. Youn don't want to over-do it because the motor has an extra long axle and is not readily available for replacement. I didn't realise that when I did mine, but luckily the motor is still OK.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
If you could get some more the same cells (22mm dia) and a 36v bms, I think they might just fit in the case because there's a bit of room at the top. As far as I can see, the case is a standard extrusion used in many batteries. The bottom connectors are mainly similar if not the same. Sometimes the latching position is a different location at the top. You'd need to take some measurements to check, but I'm pretty sure that the Juicy one will slot straight in. Worst case, you'd have to swap the bottom moulding and lose the secure (?) locking at the top. If you don't need too much range, you can slide out your battery internals and slide in a a 10s or 12s 5aH lipo pack. If you can find a scrap 24v or 36v (better) battery of this type, you could just use the case. If you're not going to use lipos, it'll probably be cheaper to buy a whole new 36v battery.
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Deleted member 4366
Guest
Do you know which battery chemistry is used in the standard pack cells, or have a part number? Would be interesting to look into the feasibility of this approach...
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
They're 22650m cells. 2020mAH 3.7v. There's a few manufacturers selling them under various trade names. Sony make them under the Konion name. Panasonic also make them and i forget the names of the others. The best place to get them is from scrap ebike batteries, but you still need a BMS for these (or similar) cells, which you can also get from a scrap battery. I'm not sure of the exact chemistry. They just call them lithium ion cells. They're the same as what you find in most laptops and lithium power tools. although they normally use the smaller diameter 18650 cells (18mm dia, 65mm long).
Be careful of Chinese suppliers that sometimes sell fakes, which are not good enough.
When batteries fail after only a year, it's unlikely that it's because of worn out cells, so, if you can find a similar battery, chances are that the problem's a wire off, internal fuse or something like that.
If you definitely want to go with 36v, I think that unless you're strapped for cash, the best option is still to buy a complete ready-made battery - used or new.
Be careful of Chinese suppliers that sometimes sell fakes, which are not good enough.
When batteries fail after only a year, it's unlikely that it's because of worn out cells, so, if you can find a similar battery, chances are that the problem's a wire off, internal fuse or something like that.
If you definitely want to go with 36v, I think that unless you're strapped for cash, the best option is still to buy a complete ready-made battery - used or new.
Found these 22650's for around £4 +P&P from a US supplier:
LiMnNi Rechargeable 22650M Cell: 3.7V 2000 mAh, 2.0A rated 7.4Wh -- UN Approved (NDGR)
I note on page 2 you say the standard pack uses 35 to produce 26.9v @ 10.6Ah (5 in parallel for 10.6Ah) so if we added 3 in series (11.1v) x 5 in parallel, we would get 37v @ 10.6Ah. They're about £4 each, so around £60 + P&P for 15 of them. That sounds quite attractive, in that other than adding the cells and buying a new charger, there would be no other expenses...
If 18650's, 22600's and 22650's are basically the same battery with a different form factor, as you say above, that might be a cheaper route. They seem to cost about £2 each for 10 off and can be sourced from UK suppliers direct:
10 x Genuine UltraFire 18650 3000mAh 3.7 Rechargable Batteries UK SELLER | eBay
If those were viable (not sure whether their peak current is good enough for example) the mod would only cost £30 + P&P+ charger
These ones from Oz have solder tabs and are about £2.50:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x-18650-ULTRAFIRE-Li-ion-3000mAh-3-7V-Rechargeable-Battery-Solder-Tab-C266-/200691072302?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM&hash=item2eba1ebd2e
...although it seems there are low cost solutions to no tags in any case:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?314680-Low-cost-DIY-18650-battery-holder
LiMnNi Rechargeable 22650M Cell: 3.7V 2000 mAh, 2.0A rated 7.4Wh -- UN Approved (NDGR)
I note on page 2 you say the standard pack uses 35 to produce 26.9v @ 10.6Ah (5 in parallel for 10.6Ah) so if we added 3 in series (11.1v) x 5 in parallel, we would get 37v @ 10.6Ah. They're about £4 each, so around £60 + P&P for 15 of them. That sounds quite attractive, in that other than adding the cells and buying a new charger, there would be no other expenses...
If 18650's, 22600's and 22650's are basically the same battery with a different form factor, as you say above, that might be a cheaper route. They seem to cost about £2 each for 10 off and can be sourced from UK suppliers direct:
10 x Genuine UltraFire 18650 3000mAh 3.7 Rechargable Batteries UK SELLER | eBay
If those were viable (not sure whether their peak current is good enough for example) the mod would only cost £30 + P&P+ charger
These ones from Oz have solder tabs and are about £2.50:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4x-18650-ULTRAFIRE-Li-ion-3000mAh-3-7V-Rechargeable-Battery-Solder-Tab-C266-/200691072302?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM&hash=item2eba1ebd2e
...although it seems there are low cost solutions to no tags in any case:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?314680-Low-cost-DIY-18650-battery-holder
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Deleted member 4366
Guest
If those were genuine Ultrafires, you might be able to use them. I ordered some from a Chinese supplier for testing.
Two obstacles you need to overcome:
Soldering them into a pack. They're normally spotwelded to joining stripsin ebike batteries. You can solder them, but you need to be good at soldering because too much heat will damage them and not enough will mean joints breaking later.
Charging them. You could use an RC charger for the extra 3 x 5 pack, cut the previous battery output wires, solder on some connectors, so that you could plug them in series either internally or externally. Most RC chargers go up to 6s, so you could make a pack of 5s5P for an additional 18.5v - taking the pack to 44.4v, but then you'd need a new controller.
You couldn't put unmatched cells into your battery and use a 36v charger because the pack would go out of balance as it went down. The BMS (you'd need a new one) can only re-balance a bit at a time and would struggle to keep balace. So you'd have to charge them separately.
To summarise: If you want to go down the route of trying 18650 cells, you could buy 15, wire them up in a 3s5P pack with a balance connector; drill a hole in your 26v battery; bring one of the power wires out through the hole (use a grommet to stop chafe); cut it and put male and female connectors on it; put matching connectors on your new battery pack; charge your 3s5p pack with an rc charger. Then you could connect them to have 36v or leave them off and join the connectors for 26v. 3s5p would fit in one of those little tool pouches that clip on the back of your saddle.
RC chargers start from about £20.
It's not easy to fit an uprated controller because they're too big to go in the compartment, so you have to lose your 26v battery first.
Two obstacles you need to overcome:
Soldering them into a pack. They're normally spotwelded to joining stripsin ebike batteries. You can solder them, but you need to be good at soldering because too much heat will damage them and not enough will mean joints breaking later.
Charging them. You could use an RC charger for the extra 3 x 5 pack, cut the previous battery output wires, solder on some connectors, so that you could plug them in series either internally or externally. Most RC chargers go up to 6s, so you could make a pack of 5s5P for an additional 18.5v - taking the pack to 44.4v, but then you'd need a new controller.
You couldn't put unmatched cells into your battery and use a 36v charger because the pack would go out of balance as it went down. The BMS (you'd need a new one) can only re-balance a bit at a time and would struggle to keep balace. So you'd have to charge them separately.
To summarise: If you want to go down the route of trying 18650 cells, you could buy 15, wire them up in a 3s5P pack with a balance connector; drill a hole in your 26v battery; bring one of the power wires out through the hole (use a grommet to stop chafe); cut it and put male and female connectors on it; put matching connectors on your new battery pack; charge your 3s5p pack with an rc charger. Then you could connect them to have 36v or leave them off and join the connectors for 26v. 3s5p would fit in one of those little tool pouches that clip on the back of your saddle.
RC chargers start from about £20.
It's not easy to fit an uprated controller because they're too big to go in the compartment, so you have to lose your 26v battery first.
Aha - so is the balance issue one of capacity - i.e. a different Ah rating leads to a variation in output voltage as power is consumed (which upsets the BMS)? Just wondering (if that is the issue) whether it
would be possible to use some 2000mAh 18650's such as:
1 PC Li-Ion 18650 Cylindrical 3.6V 2000mAh Cell w/ Tabs | eBay
...to simplify things?
would be possible to use some 2000mAh 18650's such as:
1 PC Li-Ion 18650 Cylindrical 3.6V 2000mAh Cell w/ Tabs | eBay
...to simplify things?
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
If you have cells of different capacity, the voltage will reduce at different speeds through usage. If the rating of the battery was guaranteed accurate, you could say that two 3000maH cells would be equivalent to three 2000maH ones, but it's difficult to get meaningful data without doing your own tests.
Those 18650 cells that you mentioned look OK, but you need to know their current rating. 5 cells in parallel will give 10aH. If they're only rated at 1C, they can give 10amps continuous and 20amps max, which might be OK if you don't use too much full throttle. If they're 0.5C - no good. Another thing to look out for is that when small cells give high current, their voltage can drop right off.
I forgot to mention: If you use an external pack without BMS, you need a voltage monitor on them because they mustn't go below 3.0v otherwise you kill them. They'll commit suicide if you let them. You need either a voltmeter or one of these:
7.4v 14.8v RC Lipo Battery Low Voltage Buzzer Alarm | eBay
Those 18650 cells that you mentioned look OK, but you need to know their current rating. 5 cells in parallel will give 10aH. If they're only rated at 1C, they can give 10amps continuous and 20amps max, which might be OK if you don't use too much full throttle. If they're 0.5C - no good. Another thing to look out for is that when small cells give high current, their voltage can drop right off.
I forgot to mention: If you use an external pack without BMS, you need a voltage monitor on them because they mustn't go below 3.0v otherwise you kill them. They'll commit suicide if you let them. You need either a voltmeter or one of these:
7.4v 14.8v RC Lipo Battery Low Voltage Buzzer Alarm | eBay
evendine, the problem with spending time and hard earned cash on using the original battery position, is when the bike becomes beyond repair.
The hub motor won't last forever, especially with over-volting and using the shunt mod.
The problem I'm having at the moment is finding a replacement motor for the bike.
A few of the internal nylon gears have broken, and I feel it will not last much longer
The drop-out size is longer than your average electric bike, otherwise I would have dropped in a Bafang BPM by now.
If you mount your 36v or 48v battery on a rack at the rear, then you have the option of using that battery on another project. The original slot in battery would be difficult to integrate into another bike:
If you want to use a larger uprated controller or blow the original, you could place it here:
If you really want to put the battery in a place which would allow for better balance and handling, as well as look cool, then you could use a frame bag and use whatever choice of battery you can fit in:
Bear in mind, you would be the pioneer of this last battery placement, and make some people very happy. d8veh, put the tissues away
Please note, I do only use my bike for leisure, riding off road tracks and forests.
Not like that idiot in the video.
Before we spark off another incredibly boring debate
The hub motor won't last forever, especially with over-volting and using the shunt mod.
The problem I'm having at the moment is finding a replacement motor for the bike.
A few of the internal nylon gears have broken, and I feel it will not last much longer
The drop-out size is longer than your average electric bike, otherwise I would have dropped in a Bafang BPM by now.
If you mount your 36v or 48v battery on a rack at the rear, then you have the option of using that battery on another project. The original slot in battery would be difficult to integrate into another bike:
If you want to use a larger uprated controller or blow the original, you could place it here:
If you really want to put the battery in a place which would allow for better balance and handling, as well as look cool, then you could use a frame bag and use whatever choice of battery you can fit in:
Bear in mind, you would be the pioneer of this last battery placement, and make some people very happy. d8veh, put the tissues away
Please note, I do only use my bike for leisure, riding off road tracks and forests.
Not like that idiot in the video.
Before we spark off another incredibly boring debate
well done, what a great thread. can anyone tell me what the wee red light in the KU60 controller is for. when powered up- it flashes constantly which I never noticed before-probably cause its usually switched off when I open the casing-I hope. also if a new controller has only one low voltage brake wire, how would you connect it to the four brake wires(2 positive& 2 ground) coming from the handlebars?
The LED is most likely there to fault diagnose any problems on the circuit board.
Certain flasing sequences would indicate different faults.
As for the brake wires, just connect the two positive wires together and also the two ground wires together.
This will leave you with a pos and ground wire to allow you to connect to the single controller connection.
Bear in mind, you would be the pioneer of this last battery placement, and make some people very happy. d8veh, put the tissues away
Please note, I do only use my bike for leisure, riding off road tracks and forests.
Not like that idiot in the video.
Before we spark off another incredibly boring debate
I'm a computer / electronics engineer, interested in eco friendly tech, who enjoys a modding challenge and live on the side of a big hill in which is between here and town, so building a Beastamatic ticks quite a few boxes in terms of fun and practicality...
I like the idea of making the minimum number of mods with the maximum benefit, so I'm aiming for the 36v / 1/2 shunt 'medium setting' solution - reusing everything possible without overstraining it.
Tried a stock Cyclamatic a few months ago and was impressed, but reading this thread made me buy one!
Several friends who live locally are thinking of getting one too after hearing the possibilities, but although I don't mind a 'custom look' and more complex charging arrangements, I know they would find it difficult, so am aiming to keep the bike as stock as possible, at least from the user's point of view - I know who they'll come to if things go wrong!
@d8veh: re cell capacity issues; do you think replacement of the whole existing cell set with say a 3s3p x 3 of 3600mAh 18650's might be a goer? If the cheap Chinese ones turn out ok, it would only cost about £55 + charger by the look of it...
Bike arrived today and have it assembled, but one crank nut is missing! Frustration!
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