Cyclamatic: The Beastamatic is dead! Long live the Beastamatic

[Scottyf]

Interesting on the hill climb bit. Maybe your right that using the higher voltage has changed the power curve in a way it no longer sits nicely on the torque curve but now gereates more heat from the additional watts rather than actual movement.

Either way it's good to see your posting. The forums missed you and your antics!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Interesting on the hill climb bit. Maybe your right that using the higher voltage has changed the power curve in a way it no longer sits nicely on the torque curve but now gereates more heat from the additional watts rather than actual movement.

Either way it's good to see your posting. The forums missed you and your antics!

Thanks for your kind words.
This is a different controller to the one I used for the other tests, so I suppose anything is possible.
I just took it out for a ride of about 5 miles: It's seriously fast now at 48v and 20amps - I guess like the one in the Youtube video. I reckon I could give yours a run for its money. On the return part of my trip, there's a continuous uphill of two miles - some bits fairly steep. Over the two miles I averaged 16.2 mph and used 2aH with the watt-meter showing about 900watts most of the time. I was in top gear all the time accept when I had to slow down to bypass some steps and tight turns. When I got home, the motor wasn't even warm, but the FET side of the controller was quite hot to touch. I think I can now christen it "The Beastamatic II".
I'm not going to solder the shunt in this controller now because Its got more than enough power. Now I've got the same problem as my other bikes: the pedal sensor is too fierce because the controller just gives full power all the time you're pedalling, so you can't go slow. It has a socket for a three speed switch, but I suspect that, like my other one, the three speed switch only affects the throttle, which is ridiculous. I'll give it a go anyway- just in case.

So, if anybody else wants to make a Beastamatic, a pack of 10aH 44v lipos cost about £150 including all the connectors, plus about £20 for a charger, and about £15 for the controller from BMSbattery. - and, of course, a voltmeter to monitor the battery voltage £15. So, that makes a total of about £550, but you have a spare 24v battery and charger that you can sell on Ebay. for about £100.

How long it will last is anybody's guess, but obviously not as long as a standard one.

 

[alban]

Hats off to you both d8veh and Fordulike - I've got some more modding to do and a 36V battery to buy (I think LiPos seem to be a bit beyond me and require more surveillance)!
Q is what happened to Ford's motor? Why did he get something burned out and not the Youtube bloke (I messaged him and he said he just whacked on a 48V batt with no mods and it's still flying!) or d8veh's? Surely it's not a 'too many watts' issue?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Hats off to you both d8veh and Fordulike - I've got some more modding to do and a 36V battery to buy (I think LiPos seem to be a bit beyond me and require more surveillance)!
Q is what happened to Ford's motor? Why did he get something burned out and not the Youtube bloke (I messaged him and he said he just whacked on a 48V batt with no mods and it's still flying!) or d8veh's? Surely it's not a 'too many watts' issue?

I'm not sure that it's been confirmed that his motor is definitely dead, but if it is, then it's probably amps that killed it. If I remember right, Fordulike soldered his shunt. This is best done with an ammeter on the battery so that you can see the effect. If there's two of you, one can operate the throttle and brake, while the other lifts the back of the bike, otherwise you have to use the throttle and lower the bike until the back tyre is rubbing on the ground to put the motor under load. while like that you can check the amps, gradually adding solder until you get the right amount. My guess is that 20amps is about the maximum for these smaller motors. You have to bear in mind as well that the amps can go up when you increase the voltage, but how much is different for different controllers. Also, Fordulike ran his up a long hill without pedalling. As the motor slows down it starts to make heat rather than motion, so his could have got quite hot, while as I pedalled to keep the speed up and temperature down on mine. Also, it's normally the hall sensors that give problems when you go over temperature, which is not such a problem because you can run the motor again with a sensorless controller.

My overall conclusion is that the best upgrade would be a 36v battery, the one that's in the same case as the 24v one. I think this one should fit straight in, but you'd need to check:
.: Kudos Cycles - e-bikes with style :.
Then solder the shunt to get about 17amps and you have a useful gain in speed and power - probably a bit more than most of the ready-made 36v hub motors. If the worst comes to the worst and the controller smokes, then you can fit the slightly larger KU63 controller that nearly fits in the compartment. You'd have to make a replacement cover with a power bulge in it for one side of the compartment. You could just cutaway all the the middle part and use a bit of motorcycle inner tube to stretch out through the window in it. I managed to get two screws in the normal cover, but there were gaps all round - no good if you cycle in the rain.

 

[alban]

All very useful... Trouble is I'm likely to use mostly throttle up hills too! Looking for 10% slopes.
I'll measure the batt amps draw as you suggest and get to about 16A with solder - I think I have near that now anyway.
Also get a 36V batt - I want 15AH as I use the throttle mostly so a lot of power used up. Kudos don't do bigger AH size. BMSBatt or maybe these guys electricbike.org.uk who also seem to offer a kind of bespoke service in the UK but unsure if it's LiFePO4 or not (unlikely at that price but the blurb talks about it as if it was) so I've emailed them.
Yes could get a sensorless controller too from BMSBatt if sensors get smoked - good point.

 

[NRG]

The E-Crazyman controllers from Keywin off Ebay have a three way selectable switch that affects throttle as well as the Pedelec sensor…

The amps don’t go up with increased voltage. The measurement of voltage drop across the shunt remains the same as does the phase multiplication factor…you can see this using the Ebikes.ca simulator using the eZee motor at 36v vs 48v.

 

[Fordulike]

Also, it's normally the hall sensors that give problems when you go over temperature, which is not such a problem because you can run the motor again with a sensorless controller.

Is there a way I can test the motor windings with a multimeter?
If the motor is ok, then sensorless sounds like a good way to go.
Would this literally be a straight swap, but without the hall sensor connections?

 

[Scottyf]

Sounds like it's a good few mods to get q decent cheap bike out of it.
Probably be far quicker than mine too. I should probably get a speedo to check.

The 36v does sound like the best compromise though.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Is there a way I can test the motor windings with a multimeter?
If the motor is ok, then sensorless sounds like a good way to go.
Would this literally be a straight swap, but without the hall sensor connections?

You can do some basic tests, but they won't be definitive unless you have an expensive multimeter that can read low resistance.
Set your meter to measure continuity (beep). It should should beep between each pair of phase wires. Set it to the lowest resistance scale and see if you can get a measure of resistance between each pair. they should be the same.
Next, check between each phase wire and the casing. It shouldn't beep, or the resistance should be infinite (no connection)
To test the hall sensors, you need to connect a 5v supply to the black and red wires and then you should check the voltage on each of the three hall wires (green, yellow, blue) as you rotate the motor. You should get about 5v in at least one position of the shaft for each.
I've heard that the halls can change their position from overheating and need to be glued back in their correct position.

To run sensorless, you just need a sensorless controller. Should be ok for medium power, but I'd guess that it wouldn't be so good for maximum over-powering because they run slightly less efficient like that, and therefore would make more heat.
It should be alright at 36v and 18 amps (I guess).

 

[Fordulike]

Right, I've checked continuity between the following wires:

Blue/Green
Blue/Yellow
Yellow/Green

All combinations showed fine
This means that the root cause of the breakdown and the controller overheating, was probably some sort of hall sensor melt down.
Without taking the hub motor apart (no gonna do), I'm guessing the +5v supply shorted.
The controller burst back into life after disconnecting the hall sensor plug, and overheating stopped.
So in theory, I could buy one of these:

KU60 350W Universal 6Mosfets Controller - BMSBATTERY

and wire it up like the original controller, but just omit the hall sensor plug connector.
Would that work???

 

[Deleted member 4366]

So in theory, I could buy one of these:

KU60 350W Universal 6Mosfets Controller - BMSBATTERY

and wire it up like the original controller, but just omit the hall sensor plug connector.
Would that work???

It should work, but the KU60 is bigger than the KU63. Strange- you'd think it would be the other way round. You'll probably have problems fitting it in the compartment. If you're going to use a rack battery, no problem. I'd remove the battery connector and its plate from the BB; mount the controller just above it (you only have to zip-tie it to the frame); and then run the cables through the battery connection hole so that only the connector blocks are in the compartment. Seal it up with a bit of silicone sealant - should be quite neat. There may even be room to fit a flatter shaped battery in front of the controller, or a lipo pack could be placed above it.
Another thing: you'll need to cut and join a couple of wires because the Cyclamatic pedal sensor is connected in a strange way with two connectors, and you'll have to connect the throttle LED wire direct to the 36v and the switch on the throttle as well, plus the brake switches have different connectors.

 

[Fordulike]

It should work, but the KU60 is bigger than the KU63. Strange- you'd think it would be the other way round. You'll probably have problems fitting it in the compartment. If you're going to use a rack battery, no problem. I'd remove the battery connector and its plate from the BB; mount the controller just above it (you only have to zip-tie it to the frame); and then run the cables through the battery connection hole so that only the connector blocks are in the compartment. Seal it up with a bit of silicone sealant - should be quite neat. There may even be room to fit a flatter shaped battery in front of the controller, or a lipo pack could be placed above it.
Another thing: you'll need to cut and join a couple of wires because the Cyclamatic pedal sensor is connected in a strange way with two connectors, and you'll have to connect the throttle LED wire direct to the 36v and the switch on the throttle as well, plus the brake switches have different connectors.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained as they say
Be a shame not to get the bike going again, if all it needs is a 25 quid controller.
Wasn't planning on trying to squeeze it in the compartment anyway. The original was a tight squeeze.
So on a sensorless controller, the only wires connected to the motor are the 3 phase wires?
And the controller works out the logic to fire the windings in the correct sequence?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

So on a sensorless controller, the only wires connected to the motor are the 3 phase wires?
And the controller works out the logic to fire the windings in the correct sequence?

That's right
I just remembered: the KU63 controller works both with and without sensors. It figures out for itself what's connected , and then it works accordingly. The KU60 has a higher amp rating.

 

[Fordulike]

That's right
I just remembered: the KU63 controller works both with and without sensors. It figures out for itself what's connected , and then it works accordingly. The KU60 has a higher amp rating.

Sweet, the original Beast may return.
Watch this space

 

[alban]

The E-Crazyman controllers from Keywin off Ebay have a three way selectable switch that affects throttle as well as the Pedelec sensor…

Are those he sells on ebay.uk all programmable via usb as I can't find one that says it specifically?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Are those he sells on ebay.uk all programmable via usb as I can't find one that says it specifically?

I don't believe those ones are programmable. all the programmable ones that I've seen have been £70 plus, and then you have to buy an expensive cable to connect it to your pc.

 

[Fordulike]

The E-Crazyman controllers from Keywin off Ebay have a three way selectable switch that affects throttle as well as the Pedelec sensor…

The amps don’t go up with increased voltage. The measurement of voltage drop across the shunt remains the same as does the phase multiplication factor…you can see this using the Ebikes.ca simulator using the eZee motor at 36v vs 48v.

Think I might get one from this seller too. Seems to have a much better reputation than BMSBATTERY.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Think I might get one from this seller too. Seems to have a much better reputation than BMSBATTERY.

I can't see pedal sensor connections. if you need one, ask him first. i seem to remember them being an option in previous listings.
BTW, I've never heard of a problem with a BMSbattery controller. E-crazyman gets recommended a lot on the ES forum, but you have to bear in mind that reputations are often out-of-date - like everybody here used to recommend Kalkhoffs until they realised that Cyclamatics are better.

 

[Fordulike]

I can't see pedal sensor connections. if you need one, ask him first. i seem to remember them being an option in previous listings.
BTW, I've never heard of a problem with a BMSbattery controller. E-crazyman gets recommended a lot on the ES forum, but you have to bear in mind that reputations are often out-of-date - like everybody here used to recommend Kalkhoffs until they realised that Cyclamatics are better.

Hee hee, I like that last line
I disconnected the pedelec sensor yonks ago, just used the throttle and pedal combo.
Found the pedelec operation would hang on for about one second after stopping pedaling.
This felt dangerous on very low speed sharp turns.
E-crazyman has got 100% feedback to this date, with over two and a half thousand purchases

 

[electric_avenue]

I decided to have a look inside the battery . Inside is thirty five 3.7v 2160mAH 22650 cells and a bit of space above them.

So would that be an opportunity to fit another 7 cell pack and push it out to 12.8AH? Or even fit one or two extra cells per pack to push up the voltage? To make a half-beast a matic sort of thing.