Cutting off my nose...

[stokepa31]

I think that given he new legislation, the main push now has to be on the weight and balance of a bike along with range at the legal limit. The one thing that also really appealed to me about the kalkoff's is that they would be easy to look after. No bike shop in coventry would touch my Torq and so the thought of being able to easily fix punctures, change spokes and other essential maintenance by just pooping off the wheel really appeals.

I guess what I am saying is tht in terms of being practical, the hub motor must surely die a death.

P

 

[Ian]

I guess what I am saying is tht in terms of being practical, the hub motor must surely die a death.

P

I disagree, the Panasonic drive system has co-existed with hub motors for many years both in the UK and on the Continent where pedelec only legislation has existed since 2002. An EU Torq or any other current EU Ezee bike complies with the requirements for exemption from type approval in all EU member states and is therefore legal in those member states. There is no new legislation, only a likely UK enforcement of what already exists so the only thing that needs to change is for hub motor bikes to be supplied to EU specification. In the case of the Ezee models that simply means having no switch to de-select pedelec mode, just like their existing continental counterparts.

 

[jimmyengland1000]

I guess what I am saying is tht in terms of being practical, the hub motor must surely die a death.P

I think you're wrong here. All this talk of excellence and "best" and so on is irrelevant. In the 1980's we had Betamax video, VHS video and Laserdisk (LP sized CD's!). The best of the lot was Laserdisk, next best was Betamax.... and we ended up with everyone having VHS video. It was not the best but it won the day and became the norm. This was partly because of the cost of buying a VHS system, the cost of production and so on. So, the "better" options died a death. Personally, I think it's the same for the hub motor.

So... OK, the Panasonic motor and the Kalkhoff bikes might be "the best" ...I don't agree with that though... but let's say they are. But... they are much more expensive, presently unavailable to a large extent and the bikes they are for are exclusively priced machines that put a lot of people off. E-bikes will survive by loads of people buying them and hub motored cheaper machines, not exclusive e-bikes of £1600+, will facilitate that process.....

 

[jimmyengland1000]

Thinking that Japanese competitors could never match the quality killed British industry so it is as well not to underestimate the Chinese.

Exactly. I just received a hub motor from China and it's a great piece of engineering.

I remember the days when "Made in Japan" was synonymous with "a load of cheap rubbish". Not any more. They destroyed the British bike industry, electrical industry, car industry while we sat back compacently and said how much better we were. So, the disparaging comments made about Chinese hub motors by 50Cycles, is a bit rich. Reading that from someone who still can't supply these wonder-machines is a bit ironic.

I'm still out and about on my Wisper and I just received a spare motor and controller only 6 days after ordering them. Meanwhile, back at Derby Cycles.........

 

[mk1]

Exactly. I just received a hub motor from China and it's a great piece of engineering.


I'm still out and about on my Wisper and I just received a spare motor and controller only 6 days after ordering them. Meanwhile, back at Derby Cycles.........

Is it a Suzhou Bafang motor James?, I am thinking of ordering one of these myself. I was going to order the Tongxin motor but have not had a reply to my emails.
Was the ordering process straightforward?.

 

[flecc]

I agree with James and Ian about the past Japanese record, and I've remarked a number of time in here that China will probably follow the same course and one day be the envy of others for it's quality products. I do think it will take rather longer than Japan did though.

As they say also, hub motors will not disappear. As I describe in detail in my article on Drive Through Gears in the Technical section of this site, hub motors are more efficient for the majority of e-cycling, and in flatter areas, more efficient all the time. They also tend to be inherently faster at present.

On the Derby Cycles Kalkhoff delivery issue, it's only fair to look at the background. Only a short while ago Derby were a wholly owned subsidiary of Raleigh UK, they produced in much smaller numbers and they'd never made an electric assist bike.

In a very short time they've structured an independent company, produced a number of very good designs, built up production to much higher levels and now made electric versions. In doing the latter they will have looked at how others fared with the Panasonic based designs, seen the tiny sales of BikeTech et al, and the decline and termination of Giant's Lafree series, and would have expected a gentle level of sales in entering that market, and probably wanted that in order to learn.

What has happened has clearly been anything but, and with Panasonic equally unable to respond instantly as well, for the reasons I've previously given and now supported by Erik from his knowledge, delays were inevitable.
.

 

[HarryB]

I think you're wrong here. All this talk of excellence and "best" and so on is irrelevant. In the 1980's we had Betamax video, VHS video and Laserdisk (LP sized CD's!). The best of the lot was Laserdisk, next best was Betamax.... and we ended up with everyone having VHS video. It was not the best but it won the day and became the norm. This was partly because of the cost of buying a VHS system, the cost of production and so on. So, the "better" options died a death. Personally, I think it's the same for the hub motor.

So... OK, the Panasonic motor and the Kalkhoff bikes might be "the best" ...I don't agree with that though... but let's say they are. But... they are much more expensive, presently unavailable to a large extent and the bikes they are for are exclusively priced machines that put a lot of people off. E-bikes will survive by loads of people buying them and hub motored cheaper machines, not exclusive e-bikes of £1600+, will facilitate that process.....

You cannot draw a comparison with hub motors/crank drive pedelecs to VHS/Betamax. The market was swayed because it was a format war and you were locked in to that format when you bought the recorder - why would you buy betamax when there were no rental tapes in that format regardless of the quality?

This has turned into an odd argument where nobody can see the wood for the trees. Of course ebikes with hub motors will continue to be sold and they will mostly be in the lower price band (though not exclusively). We should welcome the addition of the Kalkhoff range, it was only this time last year that Flecc was speculating that nobody would enter this market as this sort of ebike is too expensive to produce for such a small market. We now have a great choice!

By the way am I missing something - have Wisper started selling their 905SEs in the UK yet? So 50 cycles are not the only supplier struggling to get a popular product to the market place?

 

[jimmyengland1000]

Is it a Suzhou Bafang motor James?, I am thinking of ordering one of these myself. I was going to order the Tongxin motor but have not had a reply to my emails.
Was the ordering process straightforward?.

Hi, yes it's a Suzhou Bafang motor

Suzhou Bafang Motor Science Co.,Ltd.

I bought a controller, motor and pedelec sensor for £95 including shipping..... I got stung for £28 import duty but it's still cheap I reckon.

If you e-mail me, I'll give you details on how to get hold of one.....

 

[jimmyengland1000]

You cannot draw a comparison with hub motors/crank drive pedelecs to VHS/Betamax. The market was swayed because it was a format war and you were locked in to that format when you bought the recorder - why would you buy betamax when there were no rental tapes in that format regardless of the quality?

This has turned into an odd argument where nobody can see the wood for the trees. Of course ebikes with hub motors will continue to be sold and they will mostly be in the lower price band (though not exclusively). We should welcome the addition of the Kalkhoff range, it was only this time last year that Flecc was speculating that nobody would enter this market as this sort of ebike is too expensive to produce for such a small market. We now have a great choice!

By the way am I missing something - have Wisper started selling their 905SEs in the UK yet? So 50 cycles are not the only supplier struggling to get a popular product to the market place?

Yes, OK... bad analogy.... what I mean is that "excellence" costs..... mass markets is what would make e-bikes survive, not bikes approaching £2,000 and hub motors will allow that to happen. They have so far.

Do you mean that teh Wisper 905SE is NOT available here??? I've not heard that....

 

[flecc]

Do you mean that teh Wisper 905SE is NOT available here??? I've not heard that....

The UK ones still haven't arrived on the website which only shows a price on the 905e page. I understood they were going to be for March, so there's a week to go still.
.

 

[HarryB]

Yes, OK... bad analogy.... what I mean is that "excellence" costs..... mass markets is what would make e-bikes survive, not bikes approaching £2,000 and hub motors will allow that to happen. They have so far.

Do you mean that teh Wisper 905SE is NOT available here??? I've not heard that....

Sorry didn't mean to appear so damning about your analogy but I think there is room in the market place for both types of ebike. I agree that much above the current agattu price it will be a very niche market for the crank drives. I am happy to pay £1350 for a bike that will get me (reliably) into work for 2-3 years. It saves me £130 a month and luckily I am not paying the full price (cycle to work scheme).

As far as I aware the 905se has not been sold out of the UK yet - only imports from Germany. Certainly the website only offers the 905e not se.

 

[stokepa31]

The one thing a hub motor does is make repairs etc a lot more challenging. if you want to appeal to a mass market the ease of ownership will need to be a lot better than it currently is. I cant see joe public being to happy about getting the soldering iron out when the wheel needs to come off their hub motored bike or trying to follow electrical wiring schematics when water gets in their poorly waterproofed chinese torq system!! with the chain drive you can just drop the wheels off like a normal bike

Our marketplace is still young and has a massive future. I do think we will see a format war of sorts and anyone coming to this forum for buying advice is more than likely to buy a kalkoff once they read the reviews.

This is just my pesonal opinion and I know many of you will disagree but the difference between my torq and the kalkoff I rode yesterday was massive and it aleady has the title of best ebike ever from our Guru!!


Paul

 

[flecc]

This is just my pesonal opinion and I know many of you will disagree but the difference between my torq and the kalkoff I rode yesterday was massive and it aleady has the title of best ebike ever from our Guru!!

There is a clear market for both Paul, and though I rode Panasonic for over four years and love the Kalkhoffs, these days I have two hub motor bikes, though only one has any importance for me. Of course I have to allow that the important hub motor bike is only that because it's non-standard, no manufacturer yet making it's like. Without that non-standard bike, I'd be riding a Kalkhoff. (eventually )
.

 

[HarryB]

The one thing a hub motor does is make repairs etc a lot more challenging. if you want to appeal to a mass market the ease of ownership will need to be a lot better than it currently is. I cant see joe public being to happy about getting the soldering iron out when the wheel needs to come off their hub motored bike or trying to follow electrical wiring schematics when water gets in their poorly waterproofed chinese torq system!! with the chain drive you can just drop the wheels off like a normal bike

Our marketplace is still young and has a massive future. I do think we will see a format war of sorts and anyone coming to this forum for buying advice is more than likely to buy a kalkoff once they read the reviews.

This is just my pesonal opinion and I know many of you will disagree but the difference between my torq and the kalkoff I rode yesterday was massive and it aleady has the title of best ebike ever from our Guru!!


Paul

I am sure it will come down to whether you can afford the Kalkhoff in the end. Anyway I am pleased that you as a Torq owner found the Agattu great to ride, as I have made the commitment to buy one after nearly two years with the Torq. I am a bit worried that I will find it very under geared. I know you can raise the gearing but then you have the whole legal argument again....ho hum.

 

[stokepa31]

forged shimanos! forged as in forged iron or forged as in not cosha.

 

[stokepa31]

Harry

I would change the rear sprocket from the off to give a better ratio on the agattu. remains to be seen what the pro connect is like in terms of gears. for me it was less about speed and more about the feel of the bike + looking after it will be easier

Paul

 

[Ian]

Hi Ian

I appreciate your views and can see your point of view, but I think you maybe misunderstanding what I was saying. I never said they were rubbish, I said from my experience of Sales over the past 4 months not many people really want Chinese Hub motor electric bikes anymore ie the masses.

This does not in anyway make them poor or rubbish, all the components are fine but the assembly of production is not. The bikes were great but ezee cannot keep pace with the demand and quality as severely suffered. in july 2006 the Torq was groundbreaking and we were very excited and believed it was the best thing which it was, but ezee tried to make too many models and made it very complicated changing the Specs on each shipment which we as a company were crucified for on this forum.

Ian in no way would I question your intelligence or patronise you in any way but you have had 2 bikes to look after we have had 2000+ and kept every single one on the road satisfied with little back up from the supplier at 100% our own expense. Despite 3 quality recalls in 2007 we managed to keep customers on the road and happy, but my biggest lesson learnt having met with at least half a dozen Chinese bike suppliers they cannot make this product a sustainble business. The final straw with ezee was when we discovered forged shimano parts on the bikes which are now making the disc brakes shudder the sameway as the earlier Torqs, another 500 problems we managed to fix but not again. No other business would have been so patient or determined to make the product work but I am afraid by December 2007 it was hopeless.

It is only my point of view of the direction the market will go, and no one should take offense of somones opinion.

The bikes were great and up until September we were happy to stock them for another 10 years but promises after promise was broken so we had to draw the line somewhere.

Best Regards

Scott

Scott,

thank you for taking the time to read my post and reply so concisely, as with all stories there are of course 2 sides to it and while it's good to hear your side of things perhaps we should leave it there rather than risk another drawn out debate that will achieve little.

Needless to say I bear no grudges and while for various reasons my preference at present remains with the Ezee bikes I remain open to persuasion from what ever the future may hold (Bikes or otherwise )

 

[HarryB]

Harry

I would change the rear sprokcket from the off to give a better ratio on the agattu. remains to be seen what the pro connect is like in terms of gears. for me it was less about speed and more about the feel of the bike + looking after it will be easier

Paul

Depends what you mean by speed. I would like to pedal at 16-17mph on the flat if possible (as on a restricted Torq). I know there won't be any assistance but I wouldn't want my legs spinning like a whisk just to obtain this sort of speed... I also a agree about the feel of the bike To my mind the Torq is pretty good now I have got used to it but it doesn't feel like a real bicycle. Too heavy and the front motor/geometry slows the steering.

I am also looking forward to not having to change the chain so often and not getting oil from the afore mentioned chain ALL OVER MY TROUSERS (it is often the smallest of things that please).

 

[flecc]

forged shimanos! forged as in forged iron or forged as in not cosha.

Not Kosher. China is riddled with fake components for the very cheap bike market, and they can easily be bought accidentally.

The problem in cycle manufacturing and retailing is often one of availablity, and here is an example. Very recently another well known e-bike manufacturer was running out of Shimano deraileurs and urgently needed more supply, which Shimano couldn't meet in time due to their waiting list. The manufacturer then went on a hunt for someone with them who had a surplus and eventually found some in Spain which were shipped back to China for the factory to use. They were probably the genuine article, but who knows, they might not have been. Certificates of genuine source are available, but of course even those can be forged.
.

 

[stokepa31]

Depends what you mean by speed. I would like to pedal at 16-17mph on the flat if possible (as on a restricted Torq). I know there won't be any assistance but I wouldn't want my legs spinning like a whisk just to obtain this sort of speed... I also a agree about the feel of the bike To my mind the Torq is pretty good now I have got used to it but it doesn't feel like a real bicycle. Too heavy and the front motor/geometry slows the steering.

I am also looking forward to not having to change the chain so often and not getting oil from the afore mentioned chain ALL OVER MY TROUSERS (it is often the smallest of things that please).

Its dfficult for me to say how fast your whisks will be blending as the top gear (at least) was not working. I found my legs spinning rapidly for not much speed. The second bike I rode (modded) felt more like the torq in terms of speed but also had the other benefits I mentioned before