Curious about the difference between allowed wattage for 250W LPM ebikes and normal EU ebike legislation

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,260
30,648
I don't believe in open to interpretation legislation and certification at all. I believe in clear legislation and certification
You are a born dictator, wanting everyone to conform to your opinion of what is right. We once had more of your sort of clear and enforced legislation and in the late 1950s it completely killed what had briefly been a highly successful assisted cycling market.

Then that strictness went on to severely damage and greatly reduce the scooter and light motorcycle market, and as people got better off they migrated into cars, the strict laws helping to create today's car packed, cycling unfriendly roads.

But eventually these truths started to sink in and we began to ease off. First in the early 1970s we introduced easier pedelec law, but it was still too strictly defined, so we tried again in 1980. But that still had too much limitation keeping the market very small, so finally we eased off much further in 2013 and 2015, creating the larger, more successful market we have now through the flexible rules you hate.

And this wasn't only in pedelecing. The packed and cycling hostile roads we created by getting everyone into cars had left our vast network of pavements largely empty, so it made sense for cyclists to use that empty space too by allowing it.

So we redefined cycling law by ruling in year 2000 that cycling on the pavement was illegal with fixed penalties, but at the same time telling all police forces that cyclists could use the pavements when in fear of traffic. Since the police had no fear measuring instruments, that meant always, which is why they ignore pavement cycling.

In moped law too we eased off later, successfully re-expanding that market after the damage done to it by excessive law in1990.

What I'm illustrating to you is the huge damage that strict and well defined law can do and the good that flexibility can bring. You seem blind to that with your obsession with certification and wanting to take us backwards.

Fortunately you won't succeed, since as I've shown above, we now know the value of flexibility in law and act accordingly.
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Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,286
2,252
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Sevenoaks Kent
So no actual restrictions on wattage of the motor. You can pretty much use any Wisper ebike even a mid-drive motor model with a fairly high current controller as long as legally sold as 250W? I see you do a model with a 100Nm very high torque mid-drive motor and no restrictions on that? 100Nm is quite impressive that is more torque than most e-mountain bikes on the market. So you can combine a twist and go throttle with 100Nm of torque legally?
Hi Bonzo...

Yes we can.

All the best, David
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
11,531
3,277
Hi Bonzo...

Yes we can.

All the best, David
Motor

"Wisper Super Hi Torque (100Nm) Mid Drive 43.2V 250W Nominal"


100Nm @ only 43.2V - I'm curious at to which motor that is exactly. And why only 43.2V?

Would the motor burn to smitherines and/or warp the bike frame at 48V?

Is the motor your own design, or is it a rebadged product from another manufacturer? If so, which one?

IMHO fatties would prefer 48V. I say that as an ex-fatso, who assumes the controller is limited to 15A. People who haul heavily laden bike trailers might also prefer more power.

Not a Bafang, probably:

 
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saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
7,005
3,241
Telford
Motor

"Wisper Super Hi Torque (100Nm) Mid Drive 43.2V 250W Nominal"


100Nm @ only 43.2V - I'm curious at to which motor that is exactly. And why only 43.2V?

Would the motor burn to smitherines and/or warp the bike frame at 48V?

Is the motor your own design, or is it a rebadged product from another manufacturer? If so, which one?

IMHO fatties would prefer 48V. I say that as an ex-fatso, who assumes the controller is limited to 15A. People who haul heavily laden bike trailers might also prefer more power.

Not a Bafang, probably:

48V crank drives have different windings to 36v ones.
You can't run a 36v crank motor at 48v because it would spin 30% faster, or when you pedalled at normal speed, it would run inefficiently, so more channce of burning. To get more power from a crank motor, you need more amps.
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
11,531
3,277
48V crank drives have different windings to 36v ones.
You can't run a 36v crank motor at 48v because it would spin 30% faster, or when you pedalled at normal speed, it would run inefficiently, so more channce of burning. To get more power from a crank motor, you need more amps.
It's a custom order of an existing motor design, but with windings for 43.2V running at 18A for 100Nm? Why 43.2V?
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
7,005
3,241
Telford
It's a custom order of an existing motor design, but with windings for 43.2V running at 18A for 100Nm? Why 43.2V?
It's 12S. There was previously a misunderstanding of what was allowed in EN 15194 that says for systems upto 48v. The question was whether that meant a 48v battery or 48v max, but then some test houses started approving 13S systems. I think Continental was the first prestigue brand to get a 13S approval. The old Panasonic hub-motors in KTMs were also 13S, but I'm not sure whether they were EN15194 certified, not that anybody cared anyway. I think that was a bit embarrassing for our friend Colin from KTM, who was the staunchest advocate of legal electric bikes, constantly writing to the press and magazines about illegal ones in an attempt to stop them.
 
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Peter.Bridge

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 19, 2023
1,328
609
48V crank drives have different windings to 36v ones.
You can't run a 36v crank motor at 48v because it would spin 30% faster, or when you pedalled at normal speed, it would run inefficiently, so more channce of burning. To get more power from a crank motor, you need more amps.
Interesting - so these people that run their BBS02 and hd at 52V will have to pedal faster to make the most of it !
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,451
16,915
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
The sweet spot for crank drives is 90 to 100RPMs. You can easily hold to 25- 28mph unrestricted.
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
7,005
3,241
Telford
Interesting - so these people that run their BBS02 and hd at 52V will have to pedal faster to make the most of it !
It's the other way round. The motor will pedal them 7.7% faster. That might feel uncomfortable for some riders. If you're running with 52v, you're probably not doing much pedalling anyway. You'd be using the bike more as a moped, but if you did want to do some pedalling, either you'd be running inefficieciently or pedalling faster than you might find comfortable. 52v BBSHDs and BBS02s wouldn't be good options for UK pedelecs, considering the legal aspects.