Curious about the difference between allowed wattage for 250W LPM ebikes and normal EU ebike legislation

[Woosh]

If you have not derestricted your bike, your motor will deliver less than 250W continuous on a flat road and on throttle to maintain 25kph. The problem arises only when people derestrict their bikes.

 

[saneagle]

A huge part of this forum is those complaining about illegal ebikes many of which are much lower power than those claiming to be 250W. Often these ebikes have a speed limiting option and then being hub motor based their power requirements massively reduce. Now we have people claiming there is almost no limit on wattage for 250W based ebikes which is just ridiculous in how sensible certification and legislation should be written. Don't you understand the ridiculous vagueness about this ebike certification is its problem. Certification should be written with clearly defined rules that means a fairly rigid specification which allows for easy enforcement. The more I read here the more ridiculous the legislation gets. We already have tiny mini ebikes with batteries barely over 100Wh to huge e-mountain bikes with motors close to 100Nm all claiming to be 250W. Can you imagine this applied to vacuum cleaners where every vacuum cleaner be it a tiny handheld mains vacuum to huge industrial vacuum all claiming to be 250W? The deeper you get into it the more ridiculous and stupid the legislation gets hence the madness trying to enforce it.

Why is the certification even focused on the motor surely it is the controller that dictates the power that is delivered to the motor and dictates speed. Any logical attempt on ebike certification should be focused on the controller not pretend 250W stickers on motors that can take far more than 250W.

Again this is not about me. We see a huge amount of people questioning the 250W rating and no surprise as people argue here there is pretty much no real connection with 250W at all with vastly higher wattages allowed under this certification. It's just a matter of applying a sticker to a motor that can work at a huge range of different wattages one of which is 250W. You couldn't make it up. In the end the 250W rating is utterly meaningless and should just be replaced with a '15.5mph / 25Km/h restricted sticker' which would make sense and be clear to all.

I completely stand by my comments that certification should never be written in such an open and amateur way without clearly defined parameters of power and effectively now we have people at risk of prosecution and having their ebike taken purely through lack of a sticker claiming to be 250W. It's utter nonsense.

The rules are very clear and easy to understand. The motor must be rated at no more than 250w. I can't see what problem you have with that except that you don't seem to like it for some reason.

 

[saneagle]

It's not just about complying with the certification it is about not getting the police interested in you as the legislation is not clear cut there is a lot of confusion with enforcement. I do want a full twist and go throttle as allowed by the Department for transport 'type approved' exception for diy kits however I'm only really looking for throttle control while peddling for the harder bits. I just want full control when I need it although will be peddling at all times. I just don't want the cadence sensor interrupting throttle control. I absolutely hate cadence sensors and don't want to have the assistance on all the time.

It's very clear for the police. The bike must have a manufacturer's label that says 250w max and 15.5mph max assistance. What could be simpler for them?

 

[Az.]

I don't want to on a shared path with a 4ft wide electric van heading towards me.

Have you seen vehicle like that? There is only one known to me e-bike 4ft+ wide in UK... it must have been Gerney on his folder with handlebar rod extension on. Next time you see him, you can ask how many watts he is pumping through his little controller.

On a serious note you are the only known to me cyclist who is calling for more red tape. I think you have greater chances to change anything by writing your MP or starting a petition.

 

[flecc]

I seem to remember the old UK ebike legislation had weight limits of 40kg for ebikes and 60kg for e-tricycles. These seemed like very sensible weight limits for such vehicles. Were these weight limits abolished with the EU certification or perhaps increased? How heavy can an ebike go nowadays and still be allowed access to shared paths and vulnerable pedestrians?

We, that is the DfT after a public consultation, abolished those weight limits since they prevented pedelecs being used for all the possible applications that could reduce car and van usage. That was the stated reason and it is government policy here and in much of the world. The flexibility that EN15194 allows is for the same reasons.

So please stop inaccurately attacking the EU, since EN15194 is optional. Only Britain and France adopted it, the other 26 member countries did not, leaving the matter of pedelec technical standards relatively open.

So we once had those weight limits, and from even further back in the 1970s we had a strict 200 watt limit and a British Standard strictly defining that. The result was that we had no pedelecs since those that tried to create a market were useless and failed with your kind of rules.

So we came to our senses step by step, first abolishing that British Standard, then adopting EN 15194 and finally changing the nominal continuous rating from 200 to 250 watts to align with the world's most common pedelec standard.

There's no need for any change in law, the Type Approval exemption makes it very clear to all what is a legal pedelec. All we need is more people using them and the police trained accordingly.
.

 

[Cisco-man]

It's very clear for the police. The bike must have a manufacturer's label that says 250w max and 15.5mph max assistance. What could be simpler for them?

Simple question - I’ve seen the word “etched” on this form somewhere when describing the markings on the hub. Can it ever be a stick on label, or does the rating need to be etched into the hub itself?

 

[Nealh]

Akiema hubs or the Akm'swhich come via TBK & BMS Battery have sticky labels.

 

[Woosh]

It's not just the label. In case the police or the insurance company asks you for a certificate of conformity, who is going to supply it if you make your own label?

 

[flecc]

Simple question - I’ve seen the word “etched” on this form somewhere when describing the markings on the hub. Can it ever be a stick on label, or does the rating need to be etched into the hub itself?

No etching needed:

Clarification on the specification plate required on pedelecs

Confirmed as below by James Brown, International Vehicle Standards, Department for Transport:

"As part of the GB EAPC amending legislation, that will come into force on 6 April 2015, the requirement for the marking identification has been amended. Previously a plate showing the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated power output and voltage was necessary on older pedelecs. For newer machines from April 6 2015 the requirement will be that the manufacturer, maximum continuous rated output and maximum assisted cutoff speed shall be marked on the cycle."

This should be in the form of a plate or label bearing all three items of information, mounted in a prominent easily read location on the bicycle.
.

 

[flecc]

It's not just the label. In case the police or the insurance company asks you for a certificate of conformity, who is going to supply it if you make your own label?

That is why the correct method for a self built machine is to have it tested by an approved testing station at a cost of £55, asking for it to be approved as a legal pedelec ( EAPC ) or as a 250W LPM if it has a fully operational throttle.

They will issue you with an MAC (Ministers Certificate of Conformity) which you can show to the police and you can also then make your own sticky label if you want to.

Remember, the label goes on the cycle in a prominent easily read position, NOT the motor.
.

 

[saneagle]

Simple question - I’ve seen the word “etched” on this form somewhere when describing the markings on the hub. Can it ever be a stick on label, or does the rating need to be etched into the hub itself?

Doesn't have to be etched.

 

[Az.]

Remember, the label goes on the cycle in a prominent easily read position,

I have never seen such label. Do you have one on your bike? Could you post a picture please?

 

[saneagle]

That is why the correct method for a self built machine is to have it tested by an approved testing staion at a cost of £55, asking for it to be approved as a legal pedelec ( EAPC ) or as a 250W LPM if it has a fully operational throttle.

They will issue you with an MAC (Ministers Certificate of Conformity) which you can show to the police and you can also then make your own sticky label if you want to.

Remember, the label goes on the cycle in a prominent easily read position, NOT the motor.
.

It can be on the motor as long as it's easily readable. There's nothing to say that you shouldn't have to bend down to read it. The easily readable bit is only to cover the event that someone says they have the label, but you can't see it because it's inside the motor or some other box that is impractical to open at the roadside.

 

[flecc]

I have never seen such label. Do you have one on your bike? Could you post a picture please?

I've never had one , there have almost certainly been more non-compliant pedelecs than compliant ones, a norm in the sphere of pedelecs.
.

 

[Az.]

I've never had one , there have almost certainly been more non-compliant pedelecs than compliant ones

That is not good is it? If even Mighty Flecc is non-compliant.
Perhaps we should start using fuzzy logic when talking about legality? Like saying: " I think my bike is 75% legal"

 

[flecc]

That is not good is it? If even Mighty Flecc is non-compliant.
Perhaps we should start using fuzzy logic when talking about legality? Like saying: " I think my bike is 75% legal"

Legality is for fussy people.

I'm a bit like a pre-2016 pedelec that can keep its throttle through grandfather rights.

The majority of all our laws were passed into force after I was born in the 1930s, so they don't apply to me.
.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

It's very clear for the police. The bike must have a manufacturer's label that says 250w max and 15.5mph max assistance. What could be simpler for them?

From what I've seen of rating labels they don't have that. They don't state the max assistance speed and the newer rating labels just have '250W' included along with the current and voltage of the motor as supplied. I would go as far to say the '250W' bit really should be taken as the assistance speed as that is all it really means in that the ebike complies with 15.5mph/25km/h. Maybe earlier rating labels had '250W max' but I've not ever seen those.

I asked for clarification from the police regarding ebikes legality stating many of the conflicts going on from various sources but they never got back to me.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Have you seen vehicle like that? There is only one known to me e-bike 4ft+ wide in UK... it must have been Gerney on his folder with handlebar rod extension on. Next time you see him, you can ask how many watts he is pumping through his little controller.

On a serious note you are the only known to me cyclist who is calling for more red tape. I think you have greater chances to change anything by writing your MP or starting a petition.

I have to admit I do think size and weight is important especially on shared pavements and paths. I don't believe in open to interpretation legislation and certification at all. I believe in clear legislation and certification but it wouldn't really change much it would just have ebikes labelled as their correct wattage and I would up the wattage level allowed. There has to be sensible limits of specification in all areas. 250W was a ridiculous level even if it was in name only and basically completely ignored.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

It's not just the label. In case the police or the insurance company asks you for a certificate of conformity, who is going to supply it if you make your own label?

Surely the police or insurance company are not going to ask you for a certificate of conformity. They would identify the motor somehow and contact the manufacturer or importer for the certificate of conformity. Also lets say you bought a Tongsheng motor before they got wise about the ridiculous EU certification system and had accurate ratings labels but you as an end user replaced your old rating label with their new version with '250W' just placed randomly in the middle of the rating label. There would be no issue as identical power characteristics and if restricted to 15.5mph identical in legal terms. It feels to me quite positive that people can make their non-legal ebike legal thanks to a small grey sticker.

 

[Woosh]

Surely the police or insurance company are not going to ask you for a certificate of conformity.

If you want to claim on insurance, they will ask for certificate of conformity.
the CoC is the proof that your e-bike is compliant, the issuer, in most cases, the manufacturer, will stand by it, i.e. provide the test reports.
The label that you affix on your bike is made by the same company that issues the CoC. If you don't put the manufacturer's name on the label, the label is not conform.