Ridiculous scare mongering, your so called "single point of failure" would apply to any bike without a hub motor whether electric or non electric and in 50 years of riding bikes and motorbikes I have never had a chain snap and never known professional cyclists to carry a spare chain, and they probably generate the same amount of stress on a chain as a mid-motor and a motorbike certainly does.
Cube Bosch Performance cx Burns out
- Thread starter Izumojo
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- bosch performance cx cube
It ought to be noted, that the revered rear hub motors could also well feature plastic gears.
There however the bike only has one unique road speed where it's motor is functioning at peak efficiency.
This is very unlikely designed to fall where it is struggling up a steep incline, I suggest more likely optimised for the offered maximum assisted speed?
Therefore, more of the power is turned into heat to affect the plastic gearing than in mid drives where variable gearing can ensure the motor revs more freely.
If knocking the concept of mid drives, one needs not to be blind to the design issues with alternatives, or risk coming across rather bias. Each route has its issues.
QUOTE: The well known, mid motor, "single point of failure", is very apparent in terms of wear and the need to carry a spare chain and tools for each and every ride.
Whilst it is true a chain, or belt would be a single point failure issue, it is however with a bike not alone in that regard. The claim there is a need to carry a spare chain on each and every ride, discredits totally the integrity of the argument, IMO. Anyone else here dared venture out without one, that should prove the point?
In now 75 years cycling, I have never had a chain fail, even the narrow section dérailleur, cog jumping variants. Let alone with the heavier scantlings single ratio type that marries with a hub gear that adopting a mid drive enables.
There however the bike only has one unique road speed where it's motor is functioning at peak efficiency.
This is very unlikely designed to fall where it is struggling up a steep incline, I suggest more likely optimised for the offered maximum assisted speed?
Therefore, more of the power is turned into heat to affect the plastic gearing than in mid drives where variable gearing can ensure the motor revs more freely.
If knocking the concept of mid drives, one needs not to be blind to the design issues with alternatives, or risk coming across rather bias. Each route has its issues.
QUOTE: The well known, mid motor, "single point of failure", is very apparent in terms of wear and the need to carry a spare chain and tools for each and every ride.
Whilst it is true a chain, or belt would be a single point failure issue, it is however with a bike not alone in that regard. The claim there is a need to carry a spare chain on each and every ride, discredits totally the integrity of the argument, IMO. Anyone else here dared venture out without one, that should prove the point?
In now 75 years cycling, I have never had a chain fail, even the narrow section dérailleur, cog jumping variants. Let alone with the heavier scantlings single ratio type that marries with a hub gear that adopting a mid drive enables.
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There have been loads of cases of chains snapping on this forum, along with smashed derailleurs. The Bosch CX is noted for its chain suck that smashes chains like they're made of cheese. It's created a whole industry of after-market devices:
bosch cx chain suck - Google Search
www.google.com
Some smashed chains on the forum:
Brand new Haibike, two broken chains in first 35 miles, and other problems, advice needed
I picked up my brand new Haibike SDuro AllMtn 6.0 on Saturday. The bike is fantastic but I'm having some problems which I need to some advice on. The chain broke after only 15 miles. I wasn't riding the bike hard, it is brand new after all and I'm the sort of person that really takes care of my...
www.pedelecs.co.uk
Crank drive pedelecs: chain wear and maintenance
Hi, There have been multiple posts on various threads regarding the impact of crank drive on the bike chain, given the torque of recent CD motors. Would be good to get people's view on a common thread. Specifically: 1) How long a chain is expected typically to last on a CD pedelec? Some...
www.pedelecs.co.uk
it's easy enough to make a plastic gear that is strong enough to cope with the torque near stalling point. The motor will stall before the gears melt.
a problem with CD bikes is bad use of gears.
Some people don't like high cadence and still insist on buying a CD bike.
The problem is that there is always someone here, who feels clever enough to "poke me with a stick", so to say.
This wakes me up!
Deus did it this time.
I can honestly say that for my WHOLE life, I have NEVER EVER given up on correcting petty little Hitlers and trouble makers.....
And I 'aint starting to give up now!!!
But up to now, all the petty little Hitlers have not understood that! Probably all too dumb? Your guess is as good as mine!
The old saying is:- "let sleeping dogs lie!"
Furthermore, people here who like middle motors have got to start to be 100% honest, all the time, and to not be rude, when posting on Pedelec, as I will pay such people back in Spades!
This is possibly a bit of a tirade, answering back your comments, also a Tirade:-
This person who started this Topic, has had a huge financial loss due to a Bosch motor burning out, so I am 100% on subject! Comparing the various types of e-bike!
Thats not hijacking! You should look the word up in a good dictionary!
If anyone is reacting , Pavlov's Dog wise, its YOU!
You did not mention the OPs problems once! You simply picked a gun fight and came armed with a pen knife!
Therefore, you obviously do not understand what the subject is!
And you are being VERY argumentative!
You posted:- If you can't answer the original question in the thread, there's no need for you to add your 'wisdom'.
Well your whole post added no wisdom, or addressed the subject here, which is a burned out Bosch motor, or have you already forgotten that?
Did I address you personally, poke you with a stick? Of course not, so as you are WAY off the subject (Remember, aburned out Bosch motor, OK?), please go back to sleep!
Andy
Don't forget that there are three plastic gears in a hub-motor to share the load that would be done by one in a crank motor.
If you just keep up to date with reading new Pedelec topics, you will get to hear from the people who are suffering. Far too often than is good!
Being retired, I often have the time to read most new topics, and its not good for mid motor bikes, any of them! Not just Bosch!
But Bosch has made a business of NOT allowing the average LBS to even get parts.
They have stopped the owners from getting parts.
And once the guarantee is gone, as in the case of this topic, you have the most expensive 40 odd KGs of useless metal!
The CanBus adds the final death stroke for some here! As being able to buy a motor or a battery cheap privately, is no good, as the bike will not accept anything that was not part of the original build, without Bosch reprogramming it!!
AWFUL !
regards
Andy
Some, not all, as I have been informed here. They said cheap hubs are direct drive, but as I have never seen inside a hub motor that did not have hub gears, and then only in web pictures!
Also, as you posted, the power is going through 3 gears, with 3 x more contact points, reducing the load dramatically on each tooth as it comes to bear the load! Which is really good!
I could not even tell you if either of my rear Hub bikes has these extra gears or not, as neither motor, with about 10 years riding in total, ever ever had a motor problem!
They both remained as good as completely silent, so I never ever even thought to dismantle one....
Thanks for your post.
Andy
You are sometimes a little too easily 'poked' into disproportionately long diatribes.
~~~
Apologies to the OP here for going somwhat off-topic.
Looking closer it was probably a Bosch butterfly from 'Garden of Earthly Delights'
A fearsome butterfly-monster thrusting its sword into the stomach of an unfortunate captive.
Natural Histories
Prepare to dive to the depths of the sea with 100-foot-long giant squid, travel through space after the meteorites shooting into our atmosphere and join a dangerous expedition to Antarctica to find the Emperor Penguin egg. Discover fleas dressed by nuns, a defeated prince hiding from his enemies...
books.google.co.uk
Performance line bearings would appear to be the best place to go with an out of warranty Bosch or for that matter Yamaha crank drive motor, as soundwave was quick to say.
I have both a Yamaha Crank Drive Haibike and two rear hub old Oxygen Emate Cities.
For serious off road riding my crank drive bike is superb. On the road it is fine, but I prefer my old rear hub Oxygen Emate.
I have been contributing to a warts and all review of my Haibike since I bought it in 2015 for £1750. However I bought it to be able to ride to work cross country using some challenging tracks and terrain. This it has done brilliantly.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/haibike-sduro-hardseven-sl-2015-yamaha-7-month-1600-miles.22644/
I quickly found that it wore the drive train out an order of magnitude faster than my rear hub bikes. I increased my gearing and adapted my riding style and get around 1500 miles out of a chain and rear cassette and change the chain ring at around 3000 miles. Last rear 9 speed cassette cost £15 from amazon and a kmc chain £10.
I am now in my sixth year of riding it, had a second motor fitted under warranty right on the two year point free of charge, and I am using the original battery and have completed 12,216 miles so far.
I am on my third rear wheel. I carry full ortleib panniers, am heavy 115kg, and ride it as it should be off road which can include coming of sandstone steps at about 20 mph to land on the track below. I love it.
My Oxygen Emate City cost £1400 and was bought in 2011 and is still going. Had a new motor wheel fitted right on the two year warranty period free of charge. Has just had a third motor wheel fitted. The second motor wheel broke spokes which can be a disadvantage of rear hub driven bikes but I kept changing them and generally checking and adjusting the spokes until it stopped but it took a while to get to that point. The Oxygen has mechanical disc brakes that are fine on the road but require a lot of adjustment and The Haibike has hydraulic disc brakes which are much better. The Oxygen is on its third battery. I love it.
The bike dealer I bought the Haibike from has provided very good after sales support. He can change the bearing if it develops play.
However the importer Raleigh offered no help at all to fix the battery/charger connectors when they broke and I had to do it myself. If I had not been able to fix them I would have either had to scrap the bike or buy a new 400Wh battery and charger for £800, no thanks.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/yamaha-battery-charger-problem.31092/#post-434202
The bike shop I bought the Oxygen from provided no support at all. Oxygen the company have offered very good support.
The best value electric bike I have bought was a second hand Oxygen Emate similar to the one I own, originally for spars, but I found that it all worked including the battery and I have now covered over a thousand miles on it.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/the-tale-of-a-£100-second-hand-electric-bike.33079/#post-467114
Bikes like The Oxygen can usually be fixed yourself quite easily and cheaply as they use generic Chinese parts. Bikes using Bosch and Yamaha motors cannot, though hopefully people like the bearing man will become more prevalent to fix out of warranty motors.
If you want to go off road onto challenging tracks in my opinion it needs to be a crank drive bike. Riding on the road my preference is a simple cadence rear hub drive bike, but I can see how someone else might prefer the natural feel of a crank drive.
A lot of that feel comes from the control method rather than the type of motor, torque sensor or simple cadence sensor and these can be on either a crank or rear hub driven bike or probably any other style of motor for that matter.
The truth is out there and like everything else it is not a case of all crank drive being bad and rear hub driven bikes being good or vise versa for that matter.
I have both a Yamaha Crank Drive Haibike and two rear hub old Oxygen Emate Cities.
For serious off road riding my crank drive bike is superb. On the road it is fine, but I prefer my old rear hub Oxygen Emate.
I have been contributing to a warts and all review of my Haibike since I bought it in 2015 for £1750. However I bought it to be able to ride to work cross country using some challenging tracks and terrain. This it has done brilliantly.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/haibike-sduro-hardseven-sl-2015-yamaha-7-month-1600-miles.22644/
I quickly found that it wore the drive train out an order of magnitude faster than my rear hub bikes. I increased my gearing and adapted my riding style and get around 1500 miles out of a chain and rear cassette and change the chain ring at around 3000 miles. Last rear 9 speed cassette cost £15 from amazon and a kmc chain £10.
I am now in my sixth year of riding it, had a second motor fitted under warranty right on the two year point free of charge, and I am using the original battery and have completed 12,216 miles so far.
I am on my third rear wheel. I carry full ortleib panniers, am heavy 115kg, and ride it as it should be off road which can include coming of sandstone steps at about 20 mph to land on the track below. I love it.
My Oxygen Emate City cost £1400 and was bought in 2011 and is still going. Had a new motor wheel fitted right on the two year warranty period free of charge. Has just had a third motor wheel fitted. The second motor wheel broke spokes which can be a disadvantage of rear hub driven bikes but I kept changing them and generally checking and adjusting the spokes until it stopped but it took a while to get to that point. The Oxygen has mechanical disc brakes that are fine on the road but require a lot of adjustment and The Haibike has hydraulic disc brakes which are much better. The Oxygen is on its third battery. I love it.
The bike dealer I bought the Haibike from has provided very good after sales support. He can change the bearing if it develops play.
However the importer Raleigh offered no help at all to fix the battery/charger connectors when they broke and I had to do it myself. If I had not been able to fix them I would have either had to scrap the bike or buy a new 400Wh battery and charger for £800, no thanks.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/yamaha-battery-charger-problem.31092/#post-434202
The bike shop I bought the Oxygen from provided no support at all. Oxygen the company have offered very good support.
The best value electric bike I have bought was a second hand Oxygen Emate similar to the one I own, originally for spars, but I found that it all worked including the battery and I have now covered over a thousand miles on it.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/the-tale-of-a-£100-second-hand-electric-bike.33079/#post-467114
Bikes like The Oxygen can usually be fixed yourself quite easily and cheaply as they use generic Chinese parts. Bikes using Bosch and Yamaha motors cannot, though hopefully people like the bearing man will become more prevalent to fix out of warranty motors.
If you want to go off road onto challenging tracks in my opinion it needs to be a crank drive bike. Riding on the road my preference is a simple cadence rear hub drive bike, but I can see how someone else might prefer the natural feel of a crank drive.
A lot of that feel comes from the control method rather than the type of motor, torque sensor or simple cadence sensor and these can be on either a crank or rear hub driven bike or probably any other style of motor for that matter.
The truth is out there and like everything else it is not a case of all crank drive being bad and rear hub driven bikes being good or vise versa for that matter.
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@georgehenry that's a really informative and balanced viewpoint from someone with "a foot in both camps".
Thank you for taking the time to share- very educational.
Thank you for taking the time to share- very educational.
Okay, chain failure has happened, though as said never to me, but does it actually support the contention those with CM have "the need to carry a spare chain and tools for each and every ride. " ?
I think something of a wild exaggeration, and one I know personally is untrue, that IMO takes away from any constructive discussion.
As does sighting a case where two chains failed at 35 miles? Most would assume here, there was a particular issue with that bike, rather than reflecting a fundamental design issue.
Plastic gears in hub motors were flagged up, again to balance the discussion, as the less savvy reader might feel that they were a feature unique to crank motors, which clearly they are not.
Indeed, plastic despite the undertones being inferred, can be an ideal choice of gearing material and be well up to the job and offering a low noise solution, if the correct selections and loading ratings have been made. The fact epicyclics can feature three, 4 or 5 idlers sharing the load in itself does not mean they have an easier life, it all depends on the details of the gearing what the specific tooth loading is designed to be.
The comments are made to try and counter the wild statements being made, to try to add some more constructive input to the discussion, more to help those facing a bike choice. It is down to "horse for courses" or what you seek from an e-bike.
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The mid drive is maybe where someone like Bafang has slipped up on, they should have designed the motor housing so it can slide straight in to a Bosch frame.
the only time i have broken a chain is when i changed a stock part on the rear mech that failed and took the chain out with it.
and i have broken a power link because i kept reusing it but made it home just.
im on my second cassette in 5 years as went to 12spd and even sold the old 11spd one on ebay with no complaints.
and i have broken a power link because i kept reusing it but made it home just.
im on my second cassette in 5 years as went to 12spd and even sold the old 11spd one on ebay with no complaints.
They'd have to find a way for it to run with the "locked" Bosch battery and display....
Even if you replaced the complete electrics it might well end up cheaper than a Bosch motor repair/replacement.
You were way off topic on the thread where the OP was asking about satnavs
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-cobi-or-garmin-830.38192/
put that in your pipe and smoke it
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