i think there are quite a few people that would spend 1000+ for an electric bike, but are put off by 50 cycles reluctance, to sell bikes with nimh batteries,and wispers reluctance to submit any bikes for testing,people expect 3+ years of reliabillity if spending 1000+,i cannot see any brand delivering this at the moment.since the giant lafree things seem to be going downhill,my latest purchase of a giant revive spirit £1500rrp needing gearing changes,to make it even rideable.
Cost of electric bikes
- Thread starter jimmyengland1000
- Start date
The Giant Lafree range aren't going downhill Paul, they were completely discontinued more than a year ago. Your Revive Spirit was never in that Lafree range, it was an add on of a very different cheap Panasonic unit to the existing Revive unpowered bike. I agree that it was nowhere near as good as any Lafree models with which it had almost nothing in common.
There are over £1000 bikes available that will give 3+ years of reliable service, the Kalkhoff Agattu and the Gazelle Easy Glider for example. Those have the same basic setup as the excellent Lafree range, one of which performed flawlessly for me for four and a half years and is continuing to provide that service for aaannndddyyy of this forum who bought it from me. The second battery that was with it I'd previously passed on to another member who uses it as a range extending battery on his Lafree, and that battery is still on it's original cells and heading for five years old.
Not much to complain about there, and illustrating that we now do have a choice of much better bikes than previously. My first bike e-bike was that Lafree because it was the best at that time, and if I buy another one next year, it will be the Kalkhoff Pro-Connect, because the Kalkhoffs are the best now. I've already arranged to try one out.
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There are over £1000 bikes available that will give 3+ years of reliable service, the Kalkhoff Agattu and the Gazelle Easy Glider for example. Those have the same basic setup as the excellent Lafree range, one of which performed flawlessly for me for four and a half years and is continuing to provide that service for aaannndddyyy of this forum who bought it from me. The second battery that was with it I'd previously passed on to another member who uses it as a range extending battery on his Lafree, and that battery is still on it's original cells and heading for five years old.
Not much to complain about there, and illustrating that we now do have a choice of much better bikes than previously. My first bike e-bike was that Lafree because it was the best at that time, and if I buy another one next year, it will be the Kalkhoff Pro-Connect, because the Kalkhoffs are the best now. I've already arranged to try one out.
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I think with any lithium powered bike the battery life is going to be the limiting factor preventing 4 years reliable service. Every single Li-ion battery I have ever dealt with in a wide range of applications has been down to 50% or less capacity after 2 years regardless of manufacturer or discharge methods. For most applications this is not a problem but a 50% loss of range is to me unacceptable on a bike and would require replacement. I see absolutely no reason why the Panasonic battery should be any different, its light loading may well eliminate the the voltage drop and consequent cut-outs under load but theres no reason to expect it not to suffer the same capacity loss over time as the batteries we are so familiar with in mobile phones, laptops, ipods, camcorders etc., most of which have an easier time than any bike battery and don't have to endure freezing winter conditions. It should not be forgotten that Panasonic claim up to 500 cycles life and for most commuters this will be less than 2 years use, and while the battery really should be considered a consumable item we have seen so many instances where this is not the case and owners have been disappointed.
I've had similar experiences with Li Ian, even in low-power devices.
However, and I realise its not conclusive, I recall Leonardo saying (in the original Kalkhoff Agattu 'launch' thread, I think) that owners of Biketec Flyers, which have same or higher power Panasonic unit and the same battery, report minimal loss of battery capacity with still 90% of original or more after 1 or 2 years - even when fully discharged in use.
I'm not sure if there's any data on how long they last beyond that, though...
Stuart.
However, and I realise its not conclusive, I recall Leonardo saying (in the original Kalkhoff Agattu 'launch' thread, I think) that owners of Biketec Flyers, which have same or higher power Panasonic unit and the same battery, report minimal loss of battery capacity with still 90% of original or more after 1 or 2 years - even when fully discharged in use.
I'm not sure if there's any data on how long they last beyond that, though...
Stuart.
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Yes, BikeTech owners do report that, and I don't think the Panasonic battery here should be pre-judged on the poor performance of many that we do know. Panasonic have been fitting them on their folder for years now.
Equally, all the signs are that the expensive BionX Li-ion battery is set to comfortably exceed two years of useful life without large loss of life, and as I've mentioned previously, in satellites they easily cope with some 3600 partial recharges.
Officially NiMh batteries are also only good for 400 to 500 charges, but as Jeremy has pointed out, the perfectly ordinary Panasonic NiMh cells in the Prius are guaranteed for 8 years, during which they are constantly being charged and discharged all the time. Peugeot have previously used a huge bank of NiMh cells in their electric 207 with them giving a four year life of fully discharging and recharging. Clearly the potential for longer life is there.
That said, I'd personally accept a minimum two year battery life on an e-bike in exchange for the very low weight and charging conveniences of a Li-ion battery, just recognising that as the cost of this transport choice, still a fraction of the cost of running a car. I'm more concerned that they should be up to the job in all conditions rather than the absolute length of life.
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Equally, all the signs are that the expensive BionX Li-ion battery is set to comfortably exceed two years of useful life without large loss of life, and as I've mentioned previously, in satellites they easily cope with some 3600 partial recharges.
Officially NiMh batteries are also only good for 400 to 500 charges, but as Jeremy has pointed out, the perfectly ordinary Panasonic NiMh cells in the Prius are guaranteed for 8 years, during which they are constantly being charged and discharged all the time. Peugeot have previously used a huge bank of NiMh cells in their electric 207 with them giving a four year life of fully discharging and recharging. Clearly the potential for longer life is there.
That said, I'd personally accept a minimum two year battery life on an e-bike in exchange for the very low weight and charging conveniences of a Li-ion battery, just recognising that as the cost of this transport choice, still a fraction of the cost of running a car. I'm more concerned that they should be up to the job in all conditions rather than the absolute length of life.
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Time will tell, and I hope we have a long wait to find out
I personally will need a lot of convincing though, based on my ongoing experiences with Li-ion batteries in other less demanding applications.
The main point I'm trying to make though, is that owners should expect to have to replace the battery at some point and not be disappointed when that time comes, it still being very cheap form of transport when compared to public transport or motor vehicles.
I personally will need a lot of convincing though, based on my ongoing experiences with Li-ion batteries in other less demanding applications.The main point I'm trying to make though, is that owners should expect to have to replace the battery at some point and not be disappointed when that time comes, it still being very cheap form of transport when compared to public transport or motor vehicles.
I agree Ian, hence my saying I was satisfied with the two years.
There is a range issue here as well though. Even at my age I'd be hard pushed to get less than 35 miles from that Panasonic outfit I rode, and a person of working age riding up to 20 miles a day (10 each way) commuting would have a fitness more likely to give at least a 40 mile range.
On a typical 235 day working year of that number of half charges, they could well do up to four years to reach 470 full charges.
Only someone doing 40 miles a day would be likely to knock out a battery at two years old, a very unlikely scenario, and I think that's why the experienced BikeTech users are getting long lives from their 8 Ah battery and smaller. This latest 10 Ah should be even better of course, so I don't think the prospects are anything like as gloomy as experiences with the very high drains possible on our present bikes would indicate. This Panasonic unit sips current by comparison.
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There is a range issue here as well though. Even at my age I'd be hard pushed to get less than 35 miles from that Panasonic outfit I rode, and a person of working age riding up to 20 miles a day (10 each way) commuting would have a fitness more likely to give at least a 40 mile range.
On a typical 235 day working year of that number of half charges, they could well do up to four years to reach 470 full charges.
Only someone doing 40 miles a day would be likely to knock out a battery at two years old, a very unlikely scenario, and I think that's why the experienced BikeTech users are getting long lives from their 8 Ah battery and smaller. This latest 10 Ah should be even better of course, so I don't think the prospects are anything like as gloomy as experiences with the very high drains possible on our present bikes would indicate. This Panasonic unit sips current by comparison.
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Yes two years minimum seems a good benchmark to reach (though a distant dream with an Ezee battery) and I would be happy with £150 a year battery costs. I would spend that on train/tube/bus fares in London in 6 weeks if that puts into perspective. One of the reasons I will move to the Agattu when my company introduces the cycle to work scheme is to get that sort of battery life, although I suppose NiMH batteries would be even cheaper in the long run. I still at a loss as to know why the Ezee cells are quite so bad - it cannot all be in the bms. Presumably it is that the cathodes are of better quality or larger in the Agattu?
I'm not convinced the Li-ion problems are confined to the Ezee batteries Harry. Every single rechargeable lithium I've ever dealt with in many different applications has failed to meet the manufacturers claims, the latest being my 1 year old Dell laptop with I believe a Sony battery, 100 charge cycles, down to 60% capacity and falling fast, I doubt it'll reach Dells claimed life of up to 1000 cycles. In my experience this is typical Li-ion behaviour hence my cynicism.
As you've seen Hal, I'm not as pessimistic about Li-ion as Ian, particularly as I have a nine year old one in a Sharp minidisc player which still plays to over 80% of it's original time, and a three and a half year old original one in my HP laptop that runs to about 70% of the original time. Both aren't heavily used, but it shows that they can last a very long time.
I don't think the cathodes are larger in the Panasonic Li-ion, just that the maximum discharge rate is so well controlled. The eZee Quando/Torq motor draws double or more the current from cells that are similar in size after allowing for the voltage difference (10m cells eZee, 7 cells Panasonic), and the cathodes can't keep up that rate of current flow.
On the Torq when it drops to around 12 mph or less on hills, it's consuming 576 watts at full throttle, where the figures I showed on that Kalkhoff Extra section showed the maximum current drains I reached in high power mode on 14% and 20% hills averaged around 240 watts, with a peak of 277 watts.
So in the worst case of my riding, that was less than half the eZee drain.
P.S. Forgot to mention above my two 3 year old Optio digital camera batteries that are still going strong, no idea of the remaining capacity, but they perform well still.
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I tried 50cycles who say they can't supply one of these bikes until next spring. Does anyone else sell them, do you know? Also, do you know what voltage, battery type etc please?
It's only from 50cycles, and the delay is due to availability for manufacture of some of the components, in particular the eight speed hub gear. Productions are often programmed to match component availability, but I believe the first arrivals may be in February/March.
It's the same Panasonic power unit as the Kalkhoff Agattu that I've just reviewed, but in a lighter bike with rigid forks and no sprung seatpost.
Therefore the same 26 volt 10 Ah Li-ion battery with two year warranty. Pro-Connect
It's the same Panasonic power unit as the Kalkhoff Agattu that I've just reviewed, but in a lighter bike with rigid forks and no sprung seatpost.
Therefore the same 26 volt 10 Ah Li-ion battery with two year warranty. Pro-Connect
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There are different versions, as with most bikes, and the importer can choose which to bring in. Normal bikes need lots of gears, but E-bikes don't due to the way the motor drive smooths out the gear gaps and I think that 9 speed is over the top. I find 6 is enough even for my very hilly area.
Even on 8 speed gears, most don't get used, e-bike riders just skating past most of them. Ask a Torq rider and they'll say they use about four of their eight, I know I do. Ask a Powabyke 24 speed Euro rider and they'll tell you they only use about the top four gears, and one has posted as much in here.
So I think the Pro-Connect is already a really nice bike which will be made less nice if there's too many unused gears to flip past all the time.
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Even on 8 speed gears, most don't get used, e-bike riders just skating past most of them. Ask a Torq rider and they'll say they use about four of their eight, I know I do. Ask a Powabyke 24 speed Euro rider and they'll tell you they only use about the top four gears, and one has posted as much in here.
So I think the Pro-Connect is already a really nice bike which will be made less nice if there's too many unused gears to flip past all the time.
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We are due to receive a few of the Agattu with crossbars in the New Year. As soon as we have photographs of the Agattu in this configuration, I'll publish them. I'm keen to try one out myself and may adopt one as my own bike.
The crossbar model will be available in sizes up to 61cm (49, 53, 57 & 61cm), but not as a 45cm/26-inch wheel version.
The Agattu will also be available in whopping great 54cm XXL step-thru configuration later in 2008.
Im waiting for a discount!
Over the last couple of months I have been looking at the various options with regards to purchasing my first electric bike and luckily for 50cycles whittled the choice down to 2 models, the Torq and the Forza with the latter just getting the nod. The only sticking point was the price and I have to say that I agree with the original post and after discovering from their 2007 business plan that 50cycles claim a '100% mark-up' on each product they sell I imagine that there is some room for manoeuvere on price and as such will ask/wait even if it is just 10% or so as a gesture. I would hate to pay almost £1400 only to see that discounted weeks later.
Thanks for a great forum everyone, most helpful and informative.
Jon.
Over the last couple of months I have been looking at the various options with regards to purchasing my first electric bike and luckily for 50cycles whittled the choice down to 2 models, the Torq and the Forza with the latter just getting the nod. The only sticking point was the price and I have to say that I agree with the original post and after discovering from their 2007 business plan that 50cycles claim a '100% mark-up' on each product they sell I imagine that there is some room for manoeuvere on price and as such will ask/wait even if it is just 10% or so as a gesture. I would hate to pay almost £1400 only to see that discounted weeks later.
Thanks for a great forum everyone, most helpful and informative.
Jon.
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