Convince me to stay electric

[coops]

I'd say much the same as the others, Aroncox, but one or two other things: the Torq isn't that heavy, especially for an electric - many, if not most of us could probably lose more weight than the amount the Torq exceeds a mid-range aluminium framed bike : the large look of the Torq and standard gearing probably don't help give the impression it is rideable without power, but I've found lowering the gearing has really made a huge improvement to its rideability with or without power assistance, especially on starts and steeper slopes, without compromising pedal assist at top speed in the least, for my riding style .

As for reliability, I'd hope that so long as problems have been completely resolved, the bike ought to be reliable for the longer term?

If I could get around as easily and enjoyably on a non-powered bike, I'd never have bought an ebike - I might get fitter faster but I prefer having the choice how much & when to exercise, while still being able to get around at the same time .

Hope that helps, plus I pretty much covered the NiMH/battery question in your 'New battery already' thread.

I consider anyone who even visits these pages, let alone ride an ebike regularly, to be one of a rare breed .

All the best.

Stuart.

 

[HarryB]

A large part of the answer is the experience curve! How many million cars have been made in the last 100+ years, and how many million lessons have been learned from all that accumulated experience?

The electric bike industry is in its infancy and has to go through its own learning curve to iron out these faults.

Frank

1 battery, 1 controller, 1 motor, 1 throttle control and some wires - it shouldn't be that difficult should it? Although to be fair to Ezee, compared to the ghastly Eco bike I owned it is a dream and has (apart from punctures) never stopped me getting to work on time (ish).

 

[fcurran]

Cars have been around for many decades now, Im sure they experienced problems in their early years. I know times have moved on and technology has advanced greatly, but they have also sold millions upon millions of cars for several times the price of an electric bike meaning they have more money to spend upon developing their products. With regards to the lithium batteries, am I right in thinking that Sony had problems with lithium batteries for their laptops not so long ago? They are one of the largest manufacturers in the world. Its a huge learning curve for all and its only through time and experience will manufacturers get it right.

We also only ever hear of people who have problems with their bikes, the numbers that Powacycle, Powabyke, 50 Cycles, Sakura etc sell a year, Im certain the failure rates are very small.

 

[fcurran]

Damn it! I see Frank has beaten me to the old cars have been around for 100 + years example!

 

[HarryB]

Damn it! I see Frank has beaten me to the old cars have been around for 100 + years example!

Yes and each year they make cars that are more and more complex and more reliable. They manage to get the right balance between innovation and reliability and as the NiMH/Lithium debate shows the ebike industry is getting it wrong.

 

[Ian]

I'm coming in late on this lively debate but according to my sums at 18 months, 5 days a week, 10 miles each way your battery cost works at 3.2p per mile, sounds pretty cheap to me.

 

[aroncox]

You're right it is cheap, but it's hard to convince those around me when they see large chunks of money coming out of the bank for what they consider to be a stupid thing. I think people can understand a fiver a day for public transport, after all everyone else does it, but £300 for a new battery and two chargers, well that's just crazy.

Because e-bikes are new and different everyone at work has taken an interest, which was great at first, but now they just laugh and tell me I should demand my money back every day I can't use it, which is also not helpful.

On top of that, everyone says 'Why don't you just buy a real bike' which is very annoying.

I'm coming in late on this lively debate but according to my sums at 18 months, 5 days a week, 10 miles each way your battery cost works at 3.2p per mile, sounds pretty cheap to me.

 

[Ian]

Just pointing out the cost of a season ticket to the detractors should give you the last laugh. As far as proper bikes go I did recently ride one for about 6 moderately hilly miles. I made it OK but average speed was less than half what I can do on the Torq. I'm not sure I could manage 10 miles each way though.

 

[flecc]

Yes and each year they make cars that are more and more complex and more reliable. They manage to get the right balance between innovation and reliability and as the NiMH/Lithium debate shows the ebike industry is getting it wrong.

While I absolutely agree on the battery type issue where the industry is just being stupidly cussed, I don't share your opinion that the other issues are easy.

I posted a little earlier on the component issue, everyone ignoring that, but here's how it affects things.

The connectors used on a number of e-bikes are designed for and used inside the cases of electronic items meant solely for indoor use. They have no possibility of being waterproof of themselves and are prone to corrosion in outdoor use. The reason the e-bike manufacturers use them is that there is nothing else more suitable, waterproof outdoor connectors that are available being far too big for e-bike use. They do sometimes use car type bullet connectors for the higher current connections, but even those are meant to reside in a relatively warm dry engine compartment.

The alternative of having special suitable designs in each case isn't an option for production runs in hundreds or occasionally thousands. Components are made in millions to make their price acceptable, and the e-bike scale of production just isn't sufficient. The EAF control on the eZee F series shows the problem all too plainly, it being widely criticised for it's home made appearance. The eZee designers are capable of designing a very nice integrated and ergonomic control unit, but the production cost for the small number needed would be prohibitive.
.

 

[HarryB]

The connectors used on a number of e-bikes are designed for and used inside the cases of electronic items meant solely for indoor use. They have no possibility of being waterproof of themselves and are prone to corrosion in outdoor use. The reason the e-bike manufacturers use them is that there is nothing else more suitable, waterproof outdoor connectors that are available being far too big for e-bike use. They do sometimes use car type bullet connectors for the higher current connections, but even those are meant to reside in a relatively warm dry engine compartment.

And what is your opinion of motorcycle contacts - are they unsuitable or just too big? The one thing that let me down initially was the contacts on the battery - when it rained the power went. This was easily cured once you knew where the problems was, but you have to be a bit of an enthusiast to find out what was causing the lack of power (on your website). I don't think we are going to tempt many people out of their cars with these bikes yet (especially as bicycle are pretty high maintenance anyway).

Anyway I don't really have a gripe with Ezee about the general design of the bike especially as they do respond to problems, make improvements and the bike itself has not let me down. The battery on the other hand has let me down and has marred an otherwise good experience.

 

[Steven Brandist]

My opinions

OK, lets have some straight talking...

- The Torq is a Chinese built bicycle with a whole list of owners with complaints on this forum
- It is probably the market leader for one reason only - the derestricted speed
- 6 years use = £2000 (Purchase price + 3 sets of batteries at 18 month each).
- If the playing field was level and it was only capable of the LEGAL limit of 15mph then would you pay and extra £200 for a Gazelle Easy Glider?
- A normal person, riding a standard quality pedal bicycle to and from work isn't an Olyimpic sport. If you arrive in a pool of sweat you are either un-fit, putting too much effort in, or are wearing the wrong sort of clothes.

Aroncox, I would give the battery issue one more chance. You've invested a substantial sum so far, go the extra step and see what happens.

 

[flecc]

And what is your opinion of motorcycle contacts - are they unsuitable or just too big? The one thing that let me down initially was the contacts on the battery - when it rained the power went. This was easily cured once you knew where the problems was, but you have to be a bit of an enthusiast to find out what was causing the lack of power (on your website). I don't think we are going to tempt many people out of their cars with these bikes yet (especially as bicycle are pretty high maintenance anyway).

Some early motorcycle stuff was suitable but a bit too large and crude Harry, but unfortunately the modern motorbike switchgear etc is being designed as custom integrated items which are of no use. Look on most modern motorbikes and you won't see any separate switches etc, just custom groupings designed for that model, a benefit of the large scale production again.

That's why the e-bike manufacturers use the inadequate electronic component connectors and switches. They don't want trouble any more than the users, since that spells cost etc for them, but they are between a rock and a hard place as I know from my own commercial engineering experience.

The other snag with taking the plunge on designing custom items is that they can become straight jackets preventing upgrades, since once a commitment for a manufacturing quantity is made with a supplier, it has to be kept to, even if it's later found not to be the best way.

Finally I doubt if even near perfect e-bikes can tempt people out of cars.
.

 

[frank9755]

1 battery, 1 controller, 1 motor, 1 throttle control and some wires - it shouldn't be that difficult should it? Although to be fair to Ezee, compared to the ghastly Eco bike I owned it is a dream and has (apart from punctures) never stopped me getting to work on time (ish).

Put it like that, Harry, and it doesn't sound too difficult.

The hard bit is training a workforce in a factory on the other side of the world to do it for the lowest possible cost and get it right 9,999 times out of 10,000!

Frank

 

[DBCohen]

I have been hanging around here for aaound six months, and this is the first time I have come across such negative across the board comments on the Li Ion batteries 50Cycles and Ezee now supply.

It is quite disconcerting to think that I have such a potential expensive timebomb lurking relatively soon in my future - and it is unfortunate it was never discussed with me by 50Cycles during the sales process. They seem not to be weighing in on these threads either.

As I said, it is news to me. I thought I had scanned this board in detail up and down, but maybe I missed something - though I am pretty sure no-one ever mentioned it directly in threads on bike selection.

Now, I don't want to blame ANYONE here for that - after all, free advice is gratefully appreciated. But if this really is now such a problem, it needs upfront and clear discussion somewhere - an appropriate sticky in the forum as a minimum. Have AtoB ever discussed the issue in their bike reviews? The advice at Electric Bicycle Questions Answered says that the life of this battery chemistry is currently unknown - I would suggest that this information needs updating pronto.

Can anyone with more direct links to 50Cycles and AtoB try and solicit a direct response from them? And is the prevailing view now that Li Ion should be avoided? Voting with the feet when buying would be the best way to impress on suppliers that NiMH is the solution people really want, if that is the real case.

 

[flecc]

I'm staggered that you've said this DBCohen, since I'd be hard pushed to find a week when I haven't warned of the issue in here. Just read this post I made only tonight for example.

I've warned in every way possible, including on new bike advice, and have again covered this in depth on the new bike advice to MusicPlayer in his threads in the last few days, raising the subject with him and warning at length and in enormous detail.

I repeat what I said before, the warnings in here have been frequent and forceful for a very long time, and many others have joined me in doing that, Ian in particular. Long ago Flying Kiwi gave the same warnings.

Of course there could not have been any warnings over a year ago because the batteries were new, and there was therefore no experience with them. Despite that, I still warned of the theoretical risk even then.

And for the reasons I said a separate section isn't necessary, a sticky isn't either with such abundant advice already being given on the problem.
.

 

[flecc]

P.S to the above. There's an article on Li-ion life that I posted in the Battery FAQ section some while ago, repeating information that I'd previously given more than once in the forum. Here's the link:

Li-ion Life

You'll find that whole thread informative on how forcefully I've expressed myself on this issue. Here's one sample of what I've said:

"But you can see why so many of us are completely fed up with Li-ion in all it's forms and want suppliers to return to NiMh, which works, until they do get Li-ion right, if ever. If they carry on as they are without drastic improvement, they'll go out of business since people just won't stand for it."

Regarding the advice to use NiMh instead, again that's been repeated ad nauseum by Ian, Coops, many others and myself for many months, and again in the latest set of threads.
.

 

[Ian]

I too am amazed that anyone could be surprised at the short life of lithium given the ongoing extensive coverage on this forum.

However the point that everyone seems to be missing is that aroncoxs' battery has has done a 10 miles and back daily commute for 18 months, that is close to the 500 charge/discharge cycle life which the suppliers claim and therefore the battery cannot be said to have failed prematurely. Other reputable suppliers claim a similar life so are unlikely to exceed that, and that includes LG who supply the lithium polymer battery available as a Swizzbee option, LG claiming a 500 cycle life for all their LEV Li-Po types.

I'm normally no supporter of lithium types but in this case I do feel the battery has done what it says on the tin.

 

[DBCohen]

I'm staggered that you've said this DBCohen, since I'd be hard pushed to find a week when I haven't warned of the issue in here. Just read this post I made only tonight for example.

Flecc, as I said I didn't mean to directly criticise. As you know well, I have robustly defended you and others in the past on here for giving good advice. I was merely making the point that until I started to read aroncox's thread, I had no idea that this was such a potential problem issue. Now that failing is mine - but if I have failed to glean it by not reading every thread in detail, maybe others have as well, and it appears to be a costly mistake.

My real point is that following experience if there is NOW a strong recommendation to purchase NiMH batteries, it would be best to be more robustly stated where any new potential purchasers see it early in the evaluation process. I respectfully suggest that as general conversation threads, that is not good enough. The FAQ is better, but as the AtoB advice currently conflicts with the FAQ, that should also be addressed. And I repeat, given the large volume of 50Cycles customers in here we should entreat that supplier or through them Ezee themselves for a response.

Remember, aroncox is contemplating writing off his electric bike and switching to an alternative. Hardly the most positive experience!

It appears to me that this is THE most critical flaw in the whole pedelec scene, going as it does far beyond the pros and cons of particular machines and manufacturers. Does that not deserve absolute clarity?

 

[coops]

Finally I doubt if even near perfect e-bikes can tempt people out of cars.

I've tried my best to challenge my cynical inclinations on this subject, mentioned elsewhere by flecc recently, but sadly I have to agree and this issue is at the crux of whether ebkes will ever become mainstream or not (of course I'm not aiming this at you, Aroncox, because you're clearly keen to use ebikes! ).

In my view, Ezee and other producers have done a great job in giving enthusiasts something to shout about, on the whole, even with all the limitations and restrictions they face, often mentioned by flecc and others, and I'm so pleased they have, and I really hope all who've got some good use from ebikes will continue to do so, so long as they can manage some of the occasional difficulties along the way: anything worthwhile in life is worth some hardship & effort, I think .

But when it comes down to it, I think most people will not ride ebikes until circumstances prevent cars etc. from being an option, for either financial or practical reasons.

Stuart.

 

[HarryB]

Put it like that, Harry, and it doesn't sound too difficult.

The hard bit is training a workforce in a factory on the other side of the world to do it for the lowest possible cost and get it right 9,999 times out of 10,000!

Frank

Sure I agree, but the battery failure we are all talking about is on the design side not the manufacturing side. It is a R&D issue. I don't think many other manufacturers (in any industry) would get away with using their customers as test beds for an innovation (as most of the ebike manufacturers seem to have done) and still stay in business.