Convert a Kona Cinder Cone to an electric bike; please help!

[RobF]

I don't doubt d'huez is a bit of a beast, getting up it on an ordinary bike is a good effort.

I also don't doubt your girlfriend's need for an ebike.

The problem with advice for a specific task is there are so many variables.

In this case, rider input is important, which no one trying to sell you a motor can know accurately.

Sounds as if your girlfriend has some cycling experience and therefore fitness.

Assuming she is average weight for a lass, one might reasonably predict she will get up the climb without too much trouble with the aid of standard 250W motor.

Although that assumes two things, she is prepared to put it in some effort and the motor has a big enough battery to power it for long enough to get the job done.

Buying a bigger motor will make it easier for her, but using the bigger motor's power will need a yet larger battery.

If she puts in lots of effort, battery consumption will fall dramatically.

If you have to drag up there against a stiff headwind, battery consumption will rise dramatically.

A 500W motor might be a reasonable compromise, probably bigger than you need, but you don't have to run it at full power.

But, without wishing to go on about it, the battery must also be up to the job.

 

[anotherkiwi]

d'huez is a bit of a beast. I've done it a few times whilst touring and on my racing bike. It hurt every time. I know my partner won't make it on her own, hence the need for an electric bike.

"13.8 km (8.6 mi), with an average gradient of 8.1%, with 21 hairpin bends and a maximum gradient of 13%."

What is your best time up? The record times are in the 37 minutes, interestingly Pantani et.al. would benefit no gain from riding up on a EU legal pedelec.

You will be in France, on French public roads, which are watched over by French cops. If they stop you and it isn't a 250W EU legal pedelec... And being the Alp d'Huez it is likely they know a little about bikes because they see them going up the mountain all summer long... This factor has not been mentionned in the previous posts. Bring cash for paying fines on the spot if you go the illegal route would be my word of advice.

A 250W Bafung 8fun crank drive, with a 36V 15Ah battery, set to high assist mode will get to the top. Your significant other will have to pedal all the way but with little effort according to the calculator I posted a link to EDIT: did I say "no throttles allowed"?. the calculator says the pedelec can do it in 1 hour 12 minutes with a "lazy" rider or 58 minutes with a "fit" rider.

Now on a 750W 48V mid motor (s-pedelec limited to 45 kmh) a lazy rider would theoretically beat a Tour de France rider up the hill in 36 minutes or thereabouts. Does your partner have a moped licence?

Tony

 

[Deleted member 4366]

That's a long hill. It changes things a bit. For most of us here, the average 250w hub-motor would be unsuitable. It might have enough power and torque to do the job, but it would almost certainly overheat, and so would the controller. You have to keep a hub-motor spinning above 50% of its maximum speed, except for short periods, but, for that hill, it'll take me about an hour to climb. That brings two main factors to decide whether it would work for your gf: The maximum speed of the motor and the power to weight factor of your gf, which we can't assess. It could work, therefore if you can find a motor with a low enough (say 180 rpm) winding speed. The bigger motors have the torque to maintain a higher speed, but you still need a low winding speed one, which means that you, ll be carrying the weight above say 25km/h.

A crank-drive motor or the 2-speed Xiongda hub-motor would be a better solution because neither suffer from low-speed over-heating.

To give you an idea of how the heat is affected by speed, my neighbour has a 500w BPM. It has no trouble getting him up long steep hills of which there's a lot round here. I was on my Xiongda bike, when we decided to see how it could tackle Ironbridge's Lincoln Hill, which is about a mile long averaging maybe 12%, but going to about 30% in ond bit. He's done it before with no trouble at a reasonable speed. My Xiongda changes to a lower gear, so I was climbing at about 6mph. He slowed down to stay with me, but before he got to the top, his motor started misfiring and finally stopped. The phase wires coming out of his controller had completely melted, though his motor and controller were hot but still OK.

 

[anotherkiwi]

That's a long hill.

Er it's a bleeding mountain in the Alps mate here in the Basque country we have hills that the Basques call mountains (don't tell them I said that they are edgy folk...)

Tony

 

[Scott_J]

Thanks guys; this was the kind of info I was looking for.

My girlfriend is unfit. end of. I'm starting a training programme for her tomorrow.

Fourteen years ago, I did d'huez in 51 mins riding 42x23 on a Paganini steel racing bike.

Fourteen years later...

The 2-speed Xiongda looks good. I'm just going to see if it will fit the Eastway as it's 135mm wide. Here's hoping!

I read an article on it here: https://www.electricbike.com/2-speed-e-matic-xiongda/

and thanks for the additional info d8veh. Can it fit with a disc brake?

I like the fact that the 48V version actually supplies 740W, but…it looks exactly like the EU legal 250W version!

I don't want my gf being nabbed by the Le Plod.

back online laters...

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You have to stretch the frame to accommodate a Xiongda motor. Steel ones are easiest; however, aluminium ones can be done too. The last one I did was aluminium and I overstretched it so that I could put spacers on the disc side to avoid dishing the wheel. This meant that I had to put spacers (washers) behind the caliper adapter to bring the caliper in line with the disc. It's not difficult. I stretched it to 150mm.

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/rocky-mountain-conversion-with-xiongda-kit.17654/
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/xiongda-48v-2-speed-motor-kit.19731/
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/xiongda-two-speed-motor.17219/

 

[Scott_J]

I'm not sure I would want to stretch an Eastway XL frame to 150mm!!!

Do they make the 135mm motor in 740w and will it be too powerful for a 700c rim?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

No pain, no gain.

 

[Scott_J]

True, but busting a brand new bike is pointless.

Do they make the 135mm motor in 740w and will it be too powerful for a 700c rim?

edit: Ah, just seen that the 135mm motor is no use for the Eastway as it can only use disc brakes.

Maybe, I can get an old MTB frame of ebay, that I don't mind breaking!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It won't break.

They only have the one 2-speed motor in front and rear versions.

 

[Scott_J]

Could I stick a Xiongda in one of these?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Could I stick a Xiongda in one of these?

Good idea, but I think the answer is no because of the servo brake. There's no disc mount or bosses for rim brakes, so you have to use the servo brake. If it had a disc mount, it would be perfect.

Having said that, they do show a version with the thread on the brake side, in which case it could be OK. You need to email Yona. You'll have to wait for the Chinese holiday to end before you get a reply.

http://www.xiongdamotor.com.cn/product/1520641981-220560510/Double_speed_Motor.html

 

[Scott_J]

Thanks Dave, I do appreciate the advice that you and everyone has given on this forum

That new XD Double-speed Motor looks interesting!

 

[mfj197]

If you're looking at long, big hills and also decent speed on the flat I'd look at a crank drive rather than hub drives. The BBS01/02 are easy conversions and work very well, no need to be spreading rear dropouts or lacing a motor into a rear wheel. If you're worried about the French gendarmes then fit the 250W BBS01 (it's what I'm using for a conversion) - it's identical to the 350W version so robust, and if you need more power you can easily up the current limit in the controller to give you the whole 350W (actually it's over 500W).

Michael

 

[Scott_J]

Michael, how do you go about upping the power to 350w? Please remember that I am a newbie to all of this! Although I've been around bicycles all my life, I know diddly-squat about pedelecs!

Hmmm, this is where I get a little bit lost! Of course, everyone has opinions to what it the best "this 'n' that", and it seems that just when I'm at the point of ordering the bike and bits, I get another piece of advice!

My shopping list is...

1. A motor that can go up distance to the summit of at 1,860 m (6,102 ft)) is 13.8 km (8.6 mi), with an average gradient of 8.1%, with 21 hairpin bends and a maximum gradient of 13% with an unfit rider attached.
2. A motor that won't overheat.
3. Can fit a 130mm rear dropout (if rear wheel attached) Yes, I know that's near impossible!
4. A motor that delivers 500+w, even though it says 250w on the tin.
5. If it is rear wheel drive; preferably a motor that wont rip a 700c wheel apart!

Answers on a postcard please...

 

[selrahc1992]

That's a long hill. It changes things a bit. For most of us here, the average 250w hub-motor would be unsuitable. It might have enough power and torque to do the job, but it would almost certainly overheat, and so would the controller. You have to keep a hub-motor spinning above 50% of its maximum speed, except for short periods, but, for that hill, it'll take me about an hour to climb. That brings two main factors to decide whether it would work for your gf: The maximum speed of the motor and the power to weight factor of your gf, which we can't assess. It could work, therefore if you can find a motor with a low enough (say 180 rpm) winding speed. The bigger motors have the torque to maintain a higher speed, but you still need a low winding speed one, which means that you, ll be carrying the weight above say 25km/h.

A crank-drive motor or the 2-speed Xiongda hub-motor would be a better solution because neither suffer from low-speed over-heating.

To give you an idea of how the heat is affected by speed, my neighbour has a 500w BPM. It has no trouble getting him up long steep hills of which there's a lot round here. I was on my Xiongda bike, when we decided to see how it could tackle Ironbridge's Lincoln Hill, which is about a mile long averaging maybe 12%, but going to about 30% in ond bit. He's done it before with no trouble at a reasonable speed. My Xiongda changes to a lower gear, so I was climbing at about 6mph. He slowed down to stay with me, but before he got to the top, his motor started misfiring and finally stopped. The phase wires coming out of his controller had completely melted, though his motor and controller were hot but still OK.

fascinating, so if one were to build a bike for lugging a heavy (100kg) camping trailer on muddy/sandy footpaths in rural france a hub motor would be a no-no? i was hoping to do this on teh cheap running low speed (5 to 10 mph mostly) but with considerable amps (assistance). (incidentally - and odd as this may sound - does nayone know of TCM crank drives can be bought and installed in kit form? I was hoping it would be cheaper)

 

[Scott_J]

selrahc1992 - Please start your own thread. It's hard enough to get an answer to my question!

Hugs 'n' kisses xxx

 

[Scott_J]

Good calculator. Thanks anotherkiwi

 

[selrahc1992]

selrahc1992 - Please start your own thread. It's hard enough to get an answer to my question!

Hugs 'n' kisses xxx

sorry yes, that's a fair point, here's one for a moderator, if tehre's any reading, my membership does not seem to have a fucntion for starting a thread?

 

[mfj197]

Michael, how do you go about upping the power to 350w? Please remember that I am a newbie to all of this! Although I've been around bicycles all my life, I know diddly-squat about pedelecs!

It involves programming the controller on the BBS01 via a programming cable which you have to buy. There is a complete thread about the programming process and options here on Endless Sphere. There is a lot of reading there so I'd only bother if you are committed to getting that particular motor! I have the cable myself if you are anywhere near Surrey. To up the power to 350W you just change the maximum current to 18A rather than 15A, which is the only difference between the two. Actually an 18A limit gives you rather more - it's actually closer to 650 watts input power. Even if you just leave the motor as is and don't program it you'll still draw over 500W of power even though it is stamped 250W!

Hmmm, this is where I get a little bit lost! Of course, everyone has opinions to what it the best "this 'n' that", and it seems that just when I'm at the point of ordering the bike and bits, I get another piece of advice!

My shopping list is...

1. A motor that can go up distance to the summit of at 1,860 m (6,102 ft)) is 13.8 km (8.6 mi), with an average gradient of 8.1%, with 21 hairpin bends and a maximum gradient of 13% with an unfit rider attached.
2. A motor that won't overheat.
3. Can fit a 130mm rear dropout (if rear wheel attached) Yes, I know that's near impossible!
4. A motor that delivers 500+w, even though it says 250w on the tin.
5. If it is rear wheel drive; preferably a motor that wont rip a 700c wheel apart!

Answers on a postcard please...

I'd have to say that a BBS01 straight out of the box meets all of those requirements. It will do the climb. It won't overheat because you can use the bike's gearing to allow the motor to spin at speed even whilst climbing slowly. It does of course fit 130mm rear dropout! It delivers over 500W straight out of the box even though it states 250W on the inscription plate. It won't rip a 700c wheel apart - it is very smooth in its power delivery. It is also very quiet and easy to install.

The downsides of a crank drive are of course that it places more stress on the chain and rear sprockets, especially if you try shifting under full power, and it doesn't just provide immediate get-up-and-go whatever the gear (you need to use the gears). For me the upsides outweighed the downsides so I've gone with a BBS01 myself.

Michael