Convert a Kona Cinder Cone to an electric bike; please help!

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could give me some advice please, regarding converting an old Cinder Cone for my girlfriend?

We're hoping to see the Tour de France on Alpe d'Huez this year, and as we usually take the tandem abroad, I'm getting a bit fed up dragging a tandem over the Alps/Pyrenees (with an ever reluctant to pedal missus on the back) so this year, I thought I would treat her to her own two wheels (she has got a bloody nice bike actually, but gives up on hills) with electric assistance.

After the holiday is over, I was looking to use the bike as a derny for my training. I have a tarmac road (not mine!) which I can use at work, so I'm looking to create a fast bike, for little money (aren't we all?)

The bike will be transported to France on the roof of my car. We're not riding there!!! I know nothing about electric bikes and this is my first post, so please be gentle!

Thanks in advance! ;-)

Scott

The first thing is you need to try an electric bike or two.

Some test rides will let you know what they can do.

And how she feels on one.

For you a legal bike will not do? The 25kph cut cut means it is just too slow on the flat and to heavy.

For your girlfriend it's different. If she won't peddal then a throttle is normally recommended.

14 km is usually easy for an electric bike but as it averages 8.1% peddling will help and I think be required. one of the trade members will no doubt say that there bike can do it unassisted if so I look forward to her test report.

As it is all uphill a legal bike will do fine if she held 25kph she would beat the pros uphill there.

The oxidrive or whoosh cd kit would be my recommendation.

With as big a battery as possible.

The whoosh system could also be fitted to the tandem to help you drag her over the mountains too...

D8ve

It would be nice to have a photo or other picture of the actual bike because there's different versions of the Cinder Cone.

If you want speed and climbing power, it has to be a crank-drive motor. The Bafang BBS01 kit with a downtube battery should do it. Get the 13.5ah battery because you'll use a lot of power on a continuous climb. You can get it all from Woosh, who are nice and cheap too.

The kit is very simple to install provided the bike has a standard 68mm or 73mm bottom bracket.

This pic is the same bike, but my missus' bike has alloy straight forks. We changed them as they were too heavy.

I guess the Bafang looks the best bet, but with the battery, £500+ notes is a little out of my price range.

I couldn't put a motor on my tandem. Maybe when I'm a little older, but not now, as I'm too much of a purist ;-)

BTW: Thanks for the replies. Keep 'em coming!

If you can't afford the woosh kit then you are going to struggle.

Cyclotricity do a cheaper kit but with a smaller battery.

The battery is Important and a major part of the bill.

If you have an electronics background then there are options but I dont think there is much you can do.

All that's left is secondhand or hireing a bike?

What do you think?

Alp d'Huez on an electric bike? Be still my heart!

http://www.la-montee-electrique.com/?page_id=13

Cheers

Tony

You mention using the bike as a derny for your training.

A derny is something that is surprisingly difficult to achieve from an ebike.

Trundling along at 20mph with little pedal input will require a powerful motor and, if you want to do so for more than a few miles, an enormous battery.

Gaining an extra couple of mph saps power significantly - wind resistance - which is why being dernied works so well for the cyclist.

The dernys used in pro racing have, I believe, 100cc petrol motors.

Putting that in context, a 50cc moped will absolutely slaughter an ebike in terms of speed and especially range.

A derny is something that is surprisingly difficult to achieve from an ebike.

 

Trundling along at 20mph with little pedal input will require a powerful motor and, if you want to do so for more than a few miles, an enormous battery.

Yup! Can't disagree with what you have said, but this will get the missus out of the house and she can't complain that we don't spend any time together!

If I can get 25mph for an hour (with pedalling) with a Cyclotricity kit rear drive 48v 500W-1000W hub, then I'll be happy.

Is this achievable...?

easy peasy on the flat. But direct drive motors are not good on hills.

In keeping with low budget builds, for speed, go for 48V 750W BBS02, for climbing hills at high speed, 36V 500W BBS02, for good all rounder: 48V 500W BPM or 36V BPM if your'e skint.

Hmmm, this is getting interesting now...

I'm considering getting a 29er, so we can both use it! Me for the coffee shop and 'er indoors for longer jaunts.

If I'm going to spend that amount on the 48V 750W BBS02, I may as well get a new bike

So it's; Low speed =better hill climbing without over heating, or high speed = not so good at hill climbing and will overheat on hill?

I need speed+hill climbing, so what's the best 29er or 700c for under £1k?

ps. no fighting now chaps!

the low speed option is usually better for hillclimbing.

For £1000, speed + hill climbing, 48V 500W BPM with 48V 15AH battery and 25A controller. It's difficult to find a battery with that much capacity that'll go on the downtube. Ask member mechaniker to quote, I reckon it's about £700 delivered. The alternative is the 36V 25A 500W BBS02 with 36V 15AH battery kit £685 from Woosh delivered.

My 29er with BBS02 is a great bike and it (the bike) was only £399 from Evans.

They have sold out at present but you may find one elsewhere.

I can do 60 mile rides on it with ease.

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/cannondale/trail-6-29er-2014-mountain-bike-ec053947

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n50/kinninviekid/e-bikes/CAM02309_zpsa438a76b.jpg

Thanks for the info guys

I was looking at 29ers, but they all seem to have suspension forks in my price range, and I see them as an added weight to carry. As the bike isn't going to see much dirt, I was thinking of one of these:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/eastway-fb40-2014/

My question is, would the motor, a 48V 500W BPM with 48V 15AH battery and 25A controller, be too powerful for it?

ps. I would fit wider tyres... (yes, I know about width and rim configs! )

yes, it can send you flying.

You need a solid bike with good shocks.

Thanks for the info guys

 

I was looking at 29ers, but they all seem to have suspension forks in my price range, and I see them as an added weight to carry. As the bike isn't going to see much dirt, I was thinking of one of these:

 

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/eastway-fb40-2014/

 

My question is, would the motor, a 48V 500W BPM with 48V 15AH battery and 25A controller, be too powerful for it?

 

ps. I would fit wider tyres... (yes, I know about width and rim configs! )

That bike looks a great bike for conversion. The 500w 48v BPM would be a good motor for it if you need serious power. 500w is too much for forks, but will be fine in the rear drop-outs. That motor would go nicely with one of those downtube batteries with integrated 20A sinewave controllers that BMSBattery do, or, if you don't want to pedal at all, the S12S controller gives a bit more current, but probably too much for one of those bateries, so then you need to be a bit more creative with choosing a battery and its installation.

That bike looks a great bike for conversion. The 500w 48v BPM would be a good motor for it if you need serious power. 500w is too much for forks, but will be fine in the rear drop-outs. That motor would go nicely with one of those downtube batteries with integrated 20A sinewave controllers that BMSBattery do, or, if you don't want to pedal at all, the S12S controller gives a bit more current, but probably too much for one of those bateries, so then you need to be a bit more creative with choosing a battery and its installation.

Thanks for the info, but it's a bit gobbledegook to me!!!

I wouldn't put such a motor on the front forks, as the missus is riding it.

Re. Batteries: I'm just going with what you guys are telling me, as I know jack about electrics etc. ha!

May I ask, would a 48V 750W BBS02 be better or has the 36V 500W BBS02 got more torque for the mountains? Remember, it's Alpe d'huez AND the flat for when I come back home, so I need a bit of an all-rounder. Not asking for much am I?

You can get a BBS02 for a little over £400 offa ebay now, and the listing states that it can do 45mph!

Is that possible? I couldn't imagine that speed, even with a bloody strong wind behind you and a can of beans!

This means I could make the bike for around £800... Oops, oh yeah; I need a battery! What make/model ?

The Alpine climbs are not particularly steep, just long.

You mention a battery in your last line, when that's the first thing you should be thinking about.

Almost any motor will do the job for you, almost any battery will not.

What you need to work out is how much battery capacity you will need to power the motor for long enough to drag up those climbs.

Climbing takes a huge toll on battery capacity, so you might be unpleasantly surprised.

The Alpine climbs are not particularly steep, just long.

You mention a battery in your last line, when that's the first thing you should be thinking about.

Almost any motor will do the job for you, almost any battery will not.

What you need to work out is how much battery capacity you will need to power the motor for long enough to drag up those climbs.

Climbing takes a huge toll on battery capacity, so you might be unpleasantly surprised.

d'huez is a bit of a beast. I've done it a few times whilst touring and on my racing bike. It hurt every time. I know my partner won't make it on her own, hence the need for an electric bike.

Re. "Almost any motor will do the job for you"

It seems I'm getting conflicting advice here. I've spoken to other electric bike sellers, and nobody can give me a straight answer. Yes, everyone has an opinion, and I'm grateful for the advice, but...

I don't doubt d'huez is a bit of a beast, getting up it on an ordinary bike is a good effort.

I also don't doubt your girlfriend's need for an ebike.

The problem with advice for a specific task is there are so many variables.

In this case, rider input is important, which no one trying to sell you a motor can know accurately.

Sounds as if your girlfriend has some cycling experience and therefore fitness.

Assuming she is average weight for a lass, one might reasonably predict she will get up the climb without too much trouble with the aid of standard 250W motor.

Although that assumes two things, she is prepared to put it in some effort and the motor has a big enough battery to power it for long enough to get the job done.

Buying a bigger motor will make it easier for her, but using the bigger motor's power will need a yet larger battery.

If she puts in lots of effort, battery consumption will fall dramatically.

If you have to drag up there against a stiff headwind, battery consumption will rise dramatically.

A 500W motor might be a reasonable compromise, probably bigger than you need, but you don't have to run it at full power.

But, without wishing to go on about it, the battery must also be up to the job.

d'huez is a bit of a beast. I've done it a few times whilst touring and on my racing bike. It hurt every time. I know my partner won't make it on her own, hence the need for an electric bike.

"13.8 km (8.6 mi), with an average gradient of 8.1%, with 21 hairpin bends and a maximum gradient of 13%."

What is your best time up? The record times are in the 37 minutes, interestingly Pantani et.al. would benefit no gain from riding up on a EU legal pedelec.

You will be in France, on French public roads, which are watched over by French cops. If they stop you and it isn't a 250W EU legal pedelec... And being the Alp d'Huez it is likely they know a little about bikes because they see them going up the mountain all summer long... This factor has not been mentionned in the previous posts. Bring cash for paying fines on the spot if you go the illegal route would be my word of advice.

A 250W Bafung 8fun crank drive, with a 36V 15Ah battery, set to high assist mode will get to the top. Your significant other will have to pedal all the way but with little effort according to the calculator I posted a link to EDIT: did I say "no throttles allowed"?. the calculator says the pedelec can do it in 1 hour 12 minutes with a "lazy" rider or 58 minutes with a "fit" rider.

Now on a 750W 48V mid motor (s-pedelec limited to 45 kmh) a lazy rider would theoretically beat a Tour de France rider up the hill in 36 minutes or thereabouts. Does your partner have a moped licence?

Tony

Edited February 20, 201511 yr by anotherkiwi

That's a long hill. It changes things a bit. For most of us here, the average 250w hub-motor would be unsuitable. It might have enough power and torque to do the job, but it would almost certainly overheat, and so would the controller. You have to keep a hub-motor spinning above 50% of its maximum speed, except for short periods, but, for that hill, it'll take me about an hour to climb. That brings two main factors to decide whether it would work for your gf: The maximum speed of the motor and the power to weight factor of your gf, which we can't assess. It could work, therefore if you can find a motor with a low enough (say 180 rpm) winding speed. The bigger motors have the torque to maintain a higher speed, but you still need a low winding speed one, which means that you, ll be carrying the weight above say 25km/h.

A crank-drive motor or the 2-speed Xiongda hub-motor would be a better solution because neither suffer from low-speed over-heating.

To give you an idea of how the heat is affected by speed, my neighbour has a 500w BPM. It has no trouble getting him up long steep hills of which there's a lot round here. I was on my Xiongda bike, when we decided to see how it could tackle Ironbridge's Lincoln Hill, which is about a mile long averaging maybe 12%, but going to about 30% in ond bit. He's done it before with no trouble at a reasonable speed. My Xiongda changes to a lower gear, so I was climbing at about 6mph. He slowed down to stay with me, but before he got to the top, his motor started misfiring and finally stopped. The phase wires coming out of his controller had completely melted, though his motor and controller were hot but still OK.

That's a long hill.

Er it's a bleeding mountain in the Alps mate here in the Basque country we have hills that the Basques call mountains (don't tell them I said that they are edgy folk...)

Tony

Thanks guys; this was the kind of info I was looking for.

My girlfriend is unfit. end of. I'm starting a training programme for her tomorrow.

Fourteen years ago, I did d'huez in 51 mins riding 42x23 on a Paganini steel racing bike.

Fourteen years later...

The 2-speed Xiongda looks good. I'm just going to see if it will fit the Eastway as it's 135mm wide. Here's hoping!

I read an article on it here: https://www.electricbike.com/2-speed-e-matic-xiongda/

and thanks for the additional info d8veh. Can it fit with a disc brake?

I like the fact that the 48V version actually supplies 740W, but…it looks exactly like the EU legal 250W version!

I don't want my gf being nabbed by the Le Plod.

back online laters...