It looks like you know a lot about cycling industry. Why you and SW won't move in together and start a new dark web online bike separates shop? I think Woosh could use a bit of a healthy competition here.
Cheapish Motor Wheels
- Thread starter saneagle
- Start date
I don't recall anyone reporting back with "Hey bro, 48V blew up my controller". What percentage of your 36V controllers normally break down within your 12 month waranty period? I suspect the number is small, and your fears unfounded.
Overall, you'd sell a lot more units if you sold separates - it's business self-sabotage not selling separates, and you really should cease shooting yourself in the foot like that. You'll feel better when you stop.
Just think of all of the people who have posted during the past year alone, asking where to buy controllers, motors, displays etc. separately. Most of those sales and more could have been yours. Those guys and gals would have got their products sooner, and I'm sure many would have been happy paying a little more for that alone, buying from a UK based business.
I do think all the time of all the people who just need some parts that have at my shop. However, it's down to the amount of support. I can't tell someone who buys only a controller, not to expect to be helped with support and I can't expect Andy to treat someone who buys just one controller any different than he would treat someone who buys a whole kit.
I've spent years making my kits easier to fit and look after. The documentation alone takes hundreds of hours over the years. If I sell just a controller, I still have to assist the customer how to fit and set it up to work with the rest of his kit. Chinese internet shops don't do that but we expect higher service standard from UK shops.
Then there is a the issue of product liability insurance. If the bike catches fire and no other sellers are to be found because they are abroad, I will be left holding the baby, I have to prove that my controller is not involved. How am I going to do that?
Competing on a level playing field is hard enough in this economic climate when even large businesses like Wiggle and CRC run away from bikes, competing against Chinese internet shops which cheat on VAT is impossible. I hope senior members of this forum would think about not recommending Chinese internet shops unless it's unavoidable.
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I buy Akm 128c from china because it isn't available here, also the small G370 . Very few hubs are simply not available here.
I agree with you on the unavailability of a lot of products. Maplin could have done it but they have gone.
We don't unfortunately have a large sector in kit parts. With the exception of Swytch, sales made by local businesses are too small to even come near to critical mass. Since 2020, we have also lost sales to EU customers.
Saneagles original post was in reference to Eleglide bikes/parts. If you'd already bought an Eleglide bike and needed a new controller, display or motor wheel you'd be a fool not to go back to them for spares if only to ensure 100% compatibility.
Fiido do the same - as do an increasing number of other Chinese e-bike retailers - sell you a fairly decent bike at an affordable price, shipped from within the UK and offer an amazing list of spares for all their e-bikes. In the rare event a part isn't shown, you email them, and they'll add it to the list to purchase post-haste (I've seen them do that with more obscure parts multiple times now).
I find Woosh's views somewhat out-of-date here. Fiido support is certainly very good - it's in effect no more remote than Woosh is in Southend. You can call or email or preferably send a video, they'll tell you what the issue is and point you to the part. Like a Woosh spare part (unless you live near Southend), you'll have to fit it yourself or find a bike shop who'll help, but Fiido even have an extensive library of "How to repair" various faults on Youtube. For most, DIY part substitution really is a piece of cake (once someone tells you what the issue is, and Fiido certainly are very good at that too). It'd be nice if Engwe/Eleglide/ADO et al owners chipped in with their experiences, because I'm finding the Chinese really have upped their game to compete on many things other than just price.
If many of these Chinese operators are now shipping from UK warehouses, how are they not paying import duty/tax, VAT, NI for those employees here (directly or indirectly)? HMRC aren't that dumb.
If you can't stand the heat...
PS: @Woosh: If you live in both France and the UK, where do you pay your taxes?!! Why didn't you buy a second home in Devon/Norfolk/Windermere instead of giving your cash to the French? That's not supporting the UK economy either, is it?
That is very good to hear. I don't think you emphasize it enough on your web page. It should be one of your main selling points.
Unfortunately other western much bigger manufacturers have completely different attitude.
Which Chinese firm would arrange for a local bike shop or a mobile mechanic to fit a part if the customer can't do this himself or herself?
They contract out the shipping part.
The rest is done by Chinese staff remotely. When you look at paying for staff, just ask them how many have UK office and UK warehouse, not a virtual UK warehouse owned by Amazon or a fulfilling company. I used a warehousing agent last year, MXL. I know it works.
If they don't have a UK company number, they don't pay directly UK taxes. Chinese internet shops create an awful problem for UK economy. They operate an incredibly large network of websites. They steal so much money from all of us through not paying any or not paying the full amount of taxes through misdeclarations. We paid the EU over £2 billion worth of uncollected duty, just think how much corresponding VAT that would have been paid if they were paying correctly.
But then, thinking about it, would you still buy from them if VAT and duty were fully charged?
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I was going to say the same. I've been on this forum for 13 years, and I can't remember a single instance of somebody burning a motor by running it at 48v. Cwah came close about 10 years ago, when he not only over-volted a Q1000 motor, but he also ran it with 20 amps. The motor still worked but the gears were a bit worn after he used it for many miles as a 30 mph moped without pedalling.
Fiido do have service agents in London and Manchester - hardly extensive coverage, but then they also have their video library showing you how to fix most faults anyway here After-sales service - YouTube. If you couldn't do it, anybody handy - or even a mobile mechanic/shop - could watch the video and have most issues easily sorted.
None of their 350,000+ e-bikes made since 2017 are entering Europe, the US or the UK can now be entering without paying taxes somewhere; they're subject to the same HMRC rules as you are. Granted, their Manchester warehouse (handling staff) is probably subbed out, but that's not being done for free either... so how are they at a competitive advantage?
never under-estimate the length that people go about solving problems like taxes. Only the threat of huge fines or jail for those responsible works. However, how can UK government fine a website or jail its owner in China?
Look at it: the anti-dumping legislation is still very much in place. Check where the bikes are made then we'll discuss again about trans-shipping and other schemes.
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I don't. I know enough about trans-shipping and the games that can be played... I've imported enough stuff from the Far East over the years. Even Alibaba and Ebay are (at least supposed to be) collecting duties and VAT on HMRC's behalf from non-UK domiciled companies.
Of course, they'll all be playing the system as far as is legal - as you likely are claiming French residency when it suits, and UK residency when that's more favourable. Did you honestly declare your own cycle-to-work Faro e-bike as a benefit in kind and pay tax on it? I'll bet not! It slipped out the back door unnoticed, didn't it?
But there's no way container loads of bikes are being imported (in the volume that they now are) into the UK without duties and VAT being collected... at least since Brexit.
Cycle to work is salary sacrifice, it's not benefit in kind. No need to declare on P11D. I created the self administered c2w contract for £1000 bike that I email to anyone wanting to use it.
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The problem is how do you punish misdeclarations when they aren't done by UK citizens.
Anti dumping is made ineffective by various schemes. I assemble bikes in Southend-On-Sea, so I don't pay ADD but I can't export my bikes because of the Chinese manufactured content. If Chinese Internet shops want to sell bikes in the UK, they have to assemble them here or pay ADD. Unless they set up properly here, on paper I have a price advantage.
Anti dumping is made ineffective by various schemes. I assemble bikes in Southend-On-Sea, so I don't pay ADD but I can't export my bikes because of the Chinese manufactured content. If Chinese Internet shops want to sell bikes in the UK, they have to assemble them here or pay ADD. Unless they set up properly here, on paper I have a price advantage.
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I meant the bike you cycle to work on, not "cycle to work" as in the scheme. Did you declare it, or are you too playing games? It's a rhetorical question.
I'm not sitting here pretending to be whiter than white... just that it seems to be pot calling the kettle black.
If you're so concerned about the Chinese/Far Eastern suppliers avoiding paying their fair share of UK taxes and creating an unfair playing-field, those same mechanisms (chancy avoidance rather than evasion specifically) are open to you too.
You choose to import parts and assemble in the UK... you could easily divert a Chinese shipment via a third lower-tax country... another wheeze is to then import to Felixstowe but transfer to Cambridge as an inland port for Customs clearance... My experience tells me most of it gets waved through in a day without question, whereas Felixstowe takes weeks to clear, and they do check it!
I borrowed that one. I do buy my own bikes on ebay. As I said before, there are ways to avoid taxes for those who can't be caught.
The point is, I would like senior members, those who help out with their expertise, not to recommend Chinese Internet shops unless it's unavoidable.
The point is, I would like senior members, those who help out with their expertise, not to recommend Chinese Internet shops unless it's unavoidable.
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