Cheaper China e-bikes 'kick in teeth' for UK firms

[Heinzja]

That e-bike use increases the wear and tear of a bike is self-explanatory. Tyres on the motor wheel wear out quicker, brake pads on calipers or discs wear out quicker, and drivetrains have a shorter life—all self-explanatory. But at least we live longer (provided a car accident doesn’t shorten it).
Cycling, whether normal or with electric help, is the best anyone can do. I have cycled all my life, and now in my mid-70s, I feel the age slowly creeping up. But thanks to e-bike use, I am able (and willing) to cycle for longer times and distances.

I am never ill; when I get wet in our horrible weather here in England, I might catch a little cold, but when I am forced to use public transport, then I have a proper flu for a week or two. Cycling is the best and healthiest activity anyone can ever take up, regardless of the bad image associated with it here in England (the continent is different—see Benelux, Germany, France, Italy, Spain...). I have never seen a “fitness club” from the inside (I have only seen idiots on static bikes through large windows on display), but I am fit for my age.

At the moment, I cycle daily (for almost 2 months now) 60 km to visit my wife in the hospital, where she is after an accident at home. I doubt I would do this without an e-bike (even considering that I was a successful racing cyclist in my younger years and trained up to 200 km daily several times a week, besides races over the same distance in Belgium, the Netherlands, and France). Wear and tear of equipment was never an issue; it was normal and was never mentioned....

 

[RoadieRoger]

Rather than suggesting that cheaper Chinese Ebikes will be a kick in the teeth for our Producers , credit should be given to them for making Ebikes mainstream in the first place . Fourteen years ago I bought my first Ebike a Chinese built Batribike Quartz for £700 which people thought very expensive but it is still going strong , as are all my later purchases of Chinese Ebikes .Some on here are happy to decry them as junk but my experience is the exact opposite .
If you prefer to pay extra for peace of mind for support then Suppliers like Woosh , Volt and Wispa will give you that , the choice is yours . Support from cheaper Suppliers can be hit and miss as I found out with the saga of my NCM Paris Folder . NCM is part of the LEISGER Group of Hanover which was also the Designer of my Batribike Quartz although it was built under German Supervision in China . With a pedigree like that I assumed all would be well . After Covid, Importers were overstocked and Leon Cycle UK were no different , the Paris was half price from it`s normal £1299 and after advising someone to purchase one I couldn`t resist and ordered one . All went well for a few months until it started losing power intermittently . Despite 8 months left on the Warranty the Importer at Manchester couldn`t be contacted over a prolonged period .In the end after doing all the checks I correctly identified a faulty Controller and purchased a replacement from a bikeshop in the Black Forest Region of Germany .
After fitting the new Controller the NCM Paris Folder has turned out to be an excellent purchase , well made , powerful and with long range . At 86 years of age I never thought I would be doing 42 mile rides .
The purpose of my story is to point out the pitfalls in purchasing an Ebike from some sources if you are not handy with the tools .
This Paris Folder at the initial price would not fall into the cheap Chinese category but at half price it would . Also although the Owner of Leon is Chinese the Paris Folder was made in Vietnam .

 

[Heinzja]

I have a 10 mile uphill heavily laden ride this evening, from leaving a train at just after 10pm. Hoping my 9,600km cassette and 4,000km chain don't single point fail!

Good luck! Will be alright - if it has last this far it will last more...
A good idea would be always to have a chain tool and some chain bits with you... they don’t weigh much and like always you will not need them when you got them with you! Like an Umbrella... if you got an Umbrella it’s not raining... but...

 

[matthewslack]

Good luck! Will be alright - if it has last this far it will last more...
A good idea would be always to have a chain tool and some chain bits with you... they don’t weigh much and like always you will not need them when you got them with you! Like an Umbrella... if you got an Umbrella it’s not raining... but...

Today I 'ride my luck'! On a normal long ride I have spoke key, cassette spline tool and chain tool. Plus ordinary tools of course. Carry it and it will not be needed!

There is an emergency Landrover if bad things happen!

 

[saneagle]

I ask if anybody decrying the hill-climbing ability of hub-motors has tried one with 48v? Although 48v has always been legal, it's only recently that manufacturers seem to have started adopting it. The increase from 36v to 48v gives an immediate 30% increase in torque and power at the same time as a slight increase in efficiency. This gives a performance level that would satisfy any typical ebike rider that uses their bike for commuting and touring, and their bike would be able to easily deal with the steepest hills encountered.

 

[matthewslack]

One day I will, but I do not expect to be able to climb any of my favourite Scottish hills with such a setup.

150kg up 625m, moderately steep without a problem? I don't think so.

 

[saneagle]

Let's talk about reliability and running costs. Firstly, people spending £500 to buy a catalogue ebike on a whim, often don't look after them. Any ebike, including Bosch, if left out in the garden for 6 months at a time without use is going to get problems. That's typical of the posts we get on this forum about stuck or slipping clutches. Most of the other problems we hear about from bikes with hub-motors tend to be when someone acquired a bike of unknown history in a non-working condition.

The Ebike motor Centre are doing a roaring trade in repairing Bosch motors. Some of the damage inside those motors, mainly due to water ingress, is frightening, so let's not pretend that they're the epitome of reliability.

Recently, there were some videos posted of an EMTB service centre, where they did routine servicing of full suspension mid-drive type ebikes, where the guy said a £1000 service bill is fairly typical. That didn't include any servicing to the electrical system other than cleaning. People need to bear that in mind if they can't do their own servicing, and even if they can, they need to think about the cost of the service parts on bikes like that. In some cases, the cost of a rear cassette that needs replacing every year, would be more than the cost of my complete new Argos bike, of which the steel cassette would probably last the lifetime of the bike.

One more thing. People that spend thousands on expensive ebikes tend to take them back to the dealer for servicing and repairs, so we don't hear about their problems or costs. Instead most of what we see hear is from old bikes or ones bought mail order with no support, so don't let it colour your thoughts about which get the most problems.

 

[saneagle]

One day I will, but I do not expect to be able to climb any of my favourite Scottish hills with such a setup.

150kg up 625m, moderately steep without a problem? I don't think so.

A 48v 201 rpm AKM128 running with a conservative 20A would do that without pedalling. A code 16 Bafang BPM would be even better, though it's hard to find the 250w versions now.

 

[matthewslack]

A 48v 201 rpm AKM128 running with a conservative 20A would do that without pedalling. A code 16 Bafang BPM would be even better, though it's hard to find the 250w versions now.

... whilst killing my battery with 1kW power demand!

 

[Hoppy33]

A 48v 201 rpm AKM128 running with a conservative 20A would do that without pedalling. A code 16 Bafang BPM would be even better, though it's hard to find the 250w versions now.

48v at 20A is 960w so yes, of course a hub motor with that kind of power will pull up most hills. That’s exactly what I’ve got and it works okay if you can take a decent run at it and keep the motor spinning. But if you have to stop for any reason, or even just slow to let another bike come down, you’re dead.

A gearbox will always win on hills, and if you have a loaded cargo e-bike and need to launch the thing smoothly and safely on any kind of slope, you’ll know all about that. This is where the mainstream market is moving - towards regular consumers with everyday wants and needs, and away from enthusiasts.

That’s why I’m so interested to see this new Bafang hub motor with three integral automatic gears - mid-motor lugging power, at a fraction of the cost. That’ll put the cat amongst…!

https://www.cyclingelectric.com/news/bafang-motor-three-speed-automatic

 

[Heinzja]

Certainly not all Chinese products are bad. iPhones are manufactured in China (Foxconn... like HP and others), and Samsung is from Korea. So if bikes are from China, Taiwan, or wherever, if the frame is constructed according to our physics—my first e-bike was a PowaBike Commuter, which was an import as well. I still have it and have never had a failure. Three 12V SLA batteries in, and £80 later, I cycled for another 3-4 years like a cowboy sitting on a wild horse. (The batteries, plus the frame construction to house the battery pack, made the “top tube” rather wide, so that after a few hours of “cycling,” you walk like a cowboy after a rodeo.) But what do you not do to collect experiences?

The conversion kits, front or rear, have provided a big service to the e-bike market because, in the beginning, the frames of e-bikes were horrible, including bikes from Freego. All were built about 20 cm longer to house the battery behind the seat post, which made the bike funny to ride without motor help (like a tandem with one person on it). If all bikes were like my “Commuter” without motor help, no one (including me) would touch a bike anymore. A 40 kg weight for the bike, big tyres on it, heavy wheels—it's like attempting to jog in wellies... horrible!

The same applies to the hire bikes/Santander bikes or whatever name you give them. Nobody steals these bikes (only for the Bafang front wheel and the battery). The frame is worthless as a bicycle, and everyone can see from 100 m that it is stolen, and that is the idea behind the construction.

The problem with mid motors is that the frame is made for it (I got lifetime warranty on the frame! For my bike —how long is that? 5 years? What is the lifetime of a frame?). If you really want to try, you have to spend the best part of £2000 for this experience, while the usual cheap electric bikes are, in reality, factory-converted normal bikes, which cycle nicely and normally, even without motor help, and the extra weight is just a few kg for the motor and battery.

 

[saneagle]

48v at 20A is 960w so yes, of course a hub motor with that kind of power will pull up most hills. That’s exactly what I’ve got and it works okay if you can take a decent run at it and keep the motor spinning. But if you have to stop for any reason, or even just slow to let another bike come down, you’re dead.

A gearbox will always win on hills, and if you have a loaded cargo e-bike and need to launch the thing smoothly and safely on any kind of slope, you’ll know all about that. This is where the mainstream market is moving - towards regular consumers with everyday wants and needs, and away from enthusiasts.

That’s why I’m so interested to see this new Bafang hub motor with three integral automatic gears - mid-motor lugging power, at a fraction of the cost. That’ll put the cat amongst…!

https://www.cyclingelectric.com/news/bafang-motor-three-speed-automatic

Which motor do you have? What's its max speed? Mine doesn't suffer from that problem. It will power all the way up Ironbridge Gorge without pedalling if I want it to, and that's without running it at maximum power. Do you understand the affect of different motor windings on torque, efficiency and hill-climbing ability? It sounds like you have the wrong one for your needs.

If I understand that Bafang right, the 3-speed gears won't help you. The gears are between the pedals and the hub, not the motor and the hub. Only the Xiongda 2-speed motor has different ratios between the motor and the hub. It's been available for over 10 years. If you want a hill-climber, it works very well, but it has one drawback, which is that you can't push the bike backwards, otherwise you risk breaking the gears. The 48v version is like a winch when it comes to hills. No Bosch crank motor comes close, assuming normal gearing.

 

[thelarkbox]

Not all Bikes from Germany are hi-spec high price products, My Basic Ortler see icon pic has rim brakes and pre delivery etc was under £300 new, while not the optimum candidate for conversion it suits me..

 

[Hoppy33]

Which motor do you have? What's its max speed? Mine doesn't suffer from that problem. It will power all the way up Ironbridge Gorge without pedalling if I want it to, and that's without running it at maximum power. Do you understand the affect of different motor windings on torque, efficiency and hill-climbing ability? It sounds like you have the wrong one for your needs.

I was referring to my RadRunner-Plus previously, with Rad’s regular Bafang hub motor, plus EggRider maxed at 19A. I believe Rad uses the same motor in all markets, just software limited according to local regs. I’m aware of the changes that can be made to motor characteristics with different windings, and that’s one of the things that attracted me to my new-to-me RadRunner-3 Plus (that, and the greatly improved frame). Rad claims to have optimised the motor for low-end torque rather than top speed and they’ve done an excellent job! I have an EggRider sitting here ready to go, but I haven’t fitted it yet because this new motor is way, way more punchy straight out of the box and I’m really enjoying it just the way it is (EU/UK legal). I still have to pedal hard up one local hill but I live in the flatlands of East Anglia so that’s not too often.

If I understand that Bafang right, the 3-speed gears won't help you. The gears are between the pedals and the hub, not the motor and the hub. Only the Xiongda 2-speed motor has different ratios between the motor and the hub. It's been available for over 10 years. If you want a hill-climber, it works very well, but it has one drawback, which is that you can't push the bike backwards, otherwise you risk breaking the gears. The 48v version is like a winch when it comes to hills. No Bosch crank motor comes close, assuming normal gearing.

All I can say is, I hope you’re mistaken and that this new 3-speed Bafang hub motor does indeed have a proper gearbox. I don’t know for sure one way or the other. I kind-of assumed it was a development of their existing 2-speed auto hub, as used by ADO and others, that seems to work pretty well on hills (Electroheads review link below). If I’m right, Bafang may have found the Holy Grail for hub motors; if I’m wrong, well, what a waste of time!

 

[saneagle]

I was referring to my RadRunner-Plus previously, with Rad’s regular Bafang hub motor, plus EggRider maxed at 19A. I believe Rad uses the same motor in all markets, just software limited according to local regs. I’m aware of the changes that can be made to motor characteristics with different windings, and that’s one of the things that attracted me to my new-to-me RadRunner-3 Plus (that, and the greatly improved frame). Rad claims to have optimised the motor for low-end torque rather than top speed and they’ve done an excellent job! I have an EggRider sitting here ready to go, but I haven’t fitted it yet because this new motor is way, way more punchy straight out of the box and I’m really enjoying it just the way it is (EU/UK legal). I still have to pedal hard up one local hill but I live in the flatlands of East Anglia so that’s not too often.



All I can say is, I hope you’re mistaken and that this new 3-speed Bafang hub motor does indeed have a proper gearbox. I don’t know for sure one way or the other. I kind-of assumed it was a development of their existing 2-speed auto hub, as used by ADO and others, that seems to work pretty well on hills (Electroheads review link below). If I’m right, Bafang may have found the Holy Grail for hub motors; if I’m wrong, well, what a waste of time!

I hope I'm mistaken too, but, sadly, this seems to show that the motor rotor is fixed to the hub's side-plate, so will always rotate at the speed of the hub. It's not clear if that's the motor or just the hub-gears. The more I look at it, the more it looks like just the gears. I need a drawing of the whole motor to be sure.
3 modes of the Bafang 3-Speed Automatic Gear Hub #shorts

Edit: I've done a lot of searching, but can't find any picture of a 3-speed motor. It therefore must be just hub gears for a front or mid motor. Excitement over. Can you show anything otherwise?

If your motor is standard across a range of bikes for different markets, it would be a high speed one limited for the UK market, which probably explains its lack of torque for pulling away.

 

[Ghost1951]

ADO Air 20 PRO 250w E-Bike (Free Storage Bag) | Allen's E-Bikes

Allen's E-Bikes promise to deliver the highest quality E-Bikes and E-Motion products and accessories, with full warranty and service plans. Our service and products are the very best for you the rider.

allensebikes.co.uk

 

[saneagle]

ADO Air 20 PRO 250w E-Bike (Free Storage Bag) | Allen's E-Bikes

Allen's E-Bikes promise to deliver the highest quality E-Bikes and E-Motion products and accessories, with full warranty and service plans. Our service and products are the very best for you the rider.

allensebikes.co.uk

I've seen that. It's the two-speed and no mention of the motor changing into a lower gear.

 

[Ghost1951]

I've seen that. It's the two-speed and no mention of the motor changing into a lower gear.

I don't think the motor changes gear. I think the gear is for the pedal assist.

Since assist is by the torque sensor, any range enhancement is through rider effort. The battery though a very neat arrangement, is not that big at all. The high quoted figures mean the rider did much of the work.

That girl in the other video is young, strong and five foot ten. She can likely put in a lot of work.

 

[Hoppy33]

I hope I'm mistaken too, but, sadly, this seems to show that the motor rotor is fixed to the hub's side-plate, so will always rotate at the speed of the hub. It's not clear if that's the motor or just the hub-gears. The more I look at it, the more it looks like just the gears. I need a drawing of the whole motor to be sure.
3 modes of the Bafang 3-Speed Automatic Gear Hub #shorts

Edit: I've done a lot of searching, but can't find any picture of a 3-speed motor. It therefore must be just hub gears for a front or mid motor. Excitement over. Can you show anything otherwise?

If your motor is standard across a range of bikes for different markets, it would be a high speed one limited for the UK market, which probably explains its lack of torque for pulling away.

No, I can’t find anything much at all. Maybe I’ve been had. Too much wishful thinking on my behalf. Apologies if that’s set any hares running, but what a damned shame!

I’m not too unhappy though. My RadRunner-3 Plus is proving to be an excellent foundation for everything I want (some of that particular to my personal wish list) and I’m reliably informed that with the EggRider I can safely ramp the motor up to 25A/1200w. More than enough for me and a few hills.

 

[guerney]

I for one welcome the prospect of a greatly increased number of new cheapo Chinese ebikes hitting the UK market, because with the inevitable increase in problems reported and resolved on this forum, I may eventually comprehend what the hell those ever mysterious WTF PLC KT hub motor controller settings are for and do.

I imagine three gears should be enough for that new Bafang hub motor with integrated hub gears (five and nine etc. gear versions next?), if the amps can be upped for at least 720W on a boring normal sized ebike - three is certainly enough for my 20" wheeled legal 720W 36V mid-drive BBS01B converted folding bike, which is a spritely and lively enjoyable ride owing to it's ickle wheel torque advantage. I don't see that hot chick flying up those puny hills like I can at 25kph, with her heap of overpriced crap lol. And I do so with unfit ease. Here's me climbing a hill hitting the 25kph limit with only 18.4A = a legal 662.4W. Beat this hot chick, with all those crappy pre-made bikes!

One of these days, I'm going to find the puny hill this fat bloke keeps going on about and fly up at 25kph.

BAFANG SMASH!

I hid my LaceArmstrong.com steroids somewhere safe, so safe I can't remember where. I'm experiencing roid rage regardless.

If you want a better ebike, assemble one!