I bought a bike with a rear hub-motor from Argos for £340. It came with disk brakes, which I've upgraded to hydraulic for around £20. It's absolutely brilliant. The ride is really nice, and so is the handling. I gave it to a friend, who has used it for commuting to his work every day since I got it. He's very happy with it. If i needed a bike for commuting and I could get one the same, that would be my first choice.
Cheaper China e-bikes 'kick in teeth' for UK firms
- Thread starter StuartsProjects
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Whenever I bike tour in Belgium, Germany etc in the past few years nearly every other bike I see is an ebike, and about 90% of those seem to have Bosch mid drive motors. There must be millions of them bought over the last decade in those countries.
IF these Bosch motors are SO unreliable, is there a big Bosch motor repair industry over there ? Are there independent motor repairers or do the Germans etc bin the bike when the motor packs up and buy a new bike (or get their local Bosch dealer to replace the motor with a brand new one ?)
There seem to be a lot of doom and gloom merchants about slating these Bosch (and other well known brand) mid motors, saying there is a major problem - IF (and I'm not convinced) there was a major reliability issue with these mid motors , and it's inevitable they WILL fail, would the Germans put up with it ?
IF these Bosch motors are SO unreliable, is there a big Bosch motor repair industry over there ? Are there independent motor repairers or do the Germans etc bin the bike when the motor packs up and buy a new bike (or get their local Bosch dealer to replace the motor with a brand new one ?)
There seem to be a lot of doom and gloom merchants about slating these Bosch (and other well known brand) mid motors, saying there is a major problem - IF (and I'm not convinced) there was a major reliability issue with these mid motors , and it's inevitable they WILL fail, would the Germans put up with it ?
I don't know much about the brand admittedly but if they are using mainly mid-drive motors I don't see how they can be that reliable or easy to maintain. Surely very proprietary with expensive parts and repairs only allowed through dealerships who probably have to send parts away. I'm writing this from memory so apologies if I've got it completely wrong but I thought the Birdy folding bike was one of their products and that was a very unreliable folding bike with many frame failures. It was made for them by a factory in Taiwan and at least the first version was not well engineered at all. Another overly complex design with a high failure rate. So at least for that model definitely not incredibly well built and definitely went wrong and didn't last forever. The Birdy is made in Taiwan so can we assume most of their bike frames and forks at least are sourced from Asia and if so the factory used would surely dictate manufacturing quality.
I'm not knocking Suntour forks but I wouldn't say they are premium quality I would say OK quality and just because they are fitted to a premium brand doesn't make them magically better than the same fork fitted to a much cheaper ebike.
People buy BMW or Audi cars that are unreliable and have very expensive repairs. Warranty direct used to do reliability comparisons because they had charts for which cars they warranted had high failure rates and expensive repairs. If you buy a ebike for 6,000 euros your mindset for servicing and repair costs is obviously going to accept higher bills. Even though mid-drive ebikes are a minority of ebikes sold in most countries they seem to dominate repair threads on forums. However again there is nothing difficult to understand you simply have to look at their complexity and huge number of potential failure points. A motor with 20 sealed bearings, nylon cogs and a belt that could stretch is obviously more complicated and then you have the controller board right down at the bottom bracket with the risk of water ingress and damage plus of course its all proprietary. Just putting so much power through the drivetrain means additional safety issues like chain snaps which are common on mid-drive ebikes.
Of course though this doesn't mean all such ebikes fail and many don't provide good service but where do you go with them. When the motor does fail and you have a huge bill for replacement what do you do with the ebike? Do you invest that money into a heavily worn ebike with a end of life battery? Same issue if the frame fatigues and fails or you simply have an accident and the frame is damaged, it is specifically designed for the motor system and a replacement if available would be hugely expensive. These ebikes seem to reach end of life sooner than cheap hub motor ebikes which can be repaired more easily or even converted to a normal ebike or maybe have a new ebike kit fitted. I just hate this sector of the ebike market with high cost disposable ebikes.
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I agree with Bonzo B in post 19 - hub motors are better suited to the new and fast growing mainstream e-bike market. Cheap, efficient, reliable, and now I see Bafang has introduced a hub motor with integral 3-speed automatic gears (fitted to a new ADO model). That’s a game-changer. The next Bosch board meeting should be interesting.
With respect to Riese & Muller, it’s relatively easy to make a very good e-bike for £5k, especially when all the key technical components are bought-in from third parties anyway. It’s much harder to do it on a tight budget, but the Chinese are practised experts at just that kind of challenge and IMHO they will continue to squeeze the Euro brands hard in the mainstream. It’s inevitable.
When markets go mainstream, cost is king. I’m not sure the old business model, targeting cycling enthusiasts and based around manufacturers, distributors and local retailers all taking a slice, will cut it.
PS Why are ebikes so expensive anyway? They’re pretty simple mechanical devices after all! Take a look at this new Honda CB350S motorbike. It’s bluddy good, a proper Honda, made in Japan, with quality components. It’s fairly basic as these things go (just a 350cc single cylinder) but that’s bang on the market right now and it costs £3949 https://www.google.com/search?q=new+honda+350+mcn&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:3d5372ba,vid:rOw6CFcC12o,st:0
With respect to Riese & Muller, it’s relatively easy to make a very good e-bike for £5k, especially when all the key technical components are bought-in from third parties anyway. It’s much harder to do it on a tight budget, but the Chinese are practised experts at just that kind of challenge and IMHO they will continue to squeeze the Euro brands hard in the mainstream. It’s inevitable.
When markets go mainstream, cost is king. I’m not sure the old business model, targeting cycling enthusiasts and based around manufacturers, distributors and local retailers all taking a slice, will cut it.
PS Why are ebikes so expensive anyway? They’re pretty simple mechanical devices after all! Take a look at this new Honda CB350S motorbike. It’s bluddy good, a proper Honda, made in Japan, with quality components. It’s fairly basic as these things go (just a 350cc single cylinder) but that’s bang on the market right now and it costs £3949 https://www.google.com/search?q=new+honda+350+mcn&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:3d5372ba,vid:rOw6CFcC12o,st:0
I'm interested in the reality as opposed the speculation/opinions regarding reliability.
@Heinzja care to enlighten us on the actual situation if you know it in Germany ? Considering there are many more mid drive ebikes in Europe, and the Germans have been buying Bosch mid drive motors in huge numbers well for many years before they have in the UK, there will be a lot of 5+ year old Bosch mid drive motors in use. Is it actually a wide spread issue with reliability ?
@Heinzja care to enlighten us on the actual situation if you know it in Germany ? Considering there are many more mid drive ebikes in Europe, and the Germans have been buying Bosch mid drive motors in huge numbers well for many years before they have in the UK, there will be a lot of 5+ year old Bosch mid drive motors in use. Is it actually a wide spread issue with reliability ?
I'd say there's never been a better time to score a deal, there are huge discounts available, clearly a glut of stock thats not shifting
Take this example below, was £5k now £2k, check the spec and components, the parts alone would nearly make up the cost of the bike, that's before you add in the yamaha motor and 720wh battery
Raymon TrailRay 160e 10.0 29 Electric Mountain Bike Deep Red
Proper power and endurance: the R Raymon TrailRay 160e 10.0 is your riding companion for off-road adventures.
www.paulscycles.co.uk
Of course Bosch mid-motors are reliable! They’ve been making them long enough, in large quantities, to have ironed out all the wrinkles long ago. And they’re not exactly complex, cutting-edge devices anyway - at least, not compared to your average car engine that is bewilderingly complex and highly stressed running red hot while spinning at 20x the speed of an e-bike motor, but cheap to make and unfailingly reliable for many tens of thousands of miles.
{Quote start:} “ @Heinzja care to enlighten us on the actual situation if you know it in Germany ? Considering there are many more mid drive ebikes in Europe, [sic]“ {Quote end}
Yes, I can enlighten you about Bosch. Bosch is everywhere in Germany—from power tools to freezers, from spark plugs to electronic injection systems in Mercedes, Porsche, Volkswagen, Audi, and BMW. Cars and motorcycles everywhere have Bosch components inside: ABS, lights, electric systems...
**Service Network:** Bosch Dienst is everywhere, with a qualified master as the owner who trains youth to become car electric technicians. They repair starter motors, dynamos, and everything on-site, or sell new or certified repaired parts. Scrapyards are used only by foreigners or people who need a bit of life experience to later find their way to a Bosch service. Because, as the name suggests, you will find scrap at a scrapyard.
Here in England, I have to mention Lucas, and everyone starts running away. Here, you can buy a syringe and start injecting Botox without any further qualifications. The same goes for hairdressers, nail studios, tattoo parlors, and painting and decorating.... and Bike-shops....
In Leicester, Halfords is not even able to use the USB service port on a Bosch mid-motor, but selling new bikes with such a motor is not a problem.
Ask any professional or even handyman which power tools are the best: blue Bosch comes out on top (green Bosch is for DIY/B&Q). Wherever there is an electric motor inside, Bosch has held a leading position for many, many years (I still have some Bosch power tools from the 1960s that work fine and without any problems).
Most Germans own a car and have experience with Bosch products, so it is not surprising that when spending money on an electric bike and Bosch is mentioned, the choice is clear. I wonder what would happen if Lucas (they still exist?) would sell/produce electric bikes...
Yes, I can enlighten you about Bosch. Bosch is everywhere in Germany—from power tools to freezers, from spark plugs to electronic injection systems in Mercedes, Porsche, Volkswagen, Audi, and BMW. Cars and motorcycles everywhere have Bosch components inside: ABS, lights, electric systems...
**Service Network:** Bosch Dienst is everywhere, with a qualified master as the owner who trains youth to become car electric technicians. They repair starter motors, dynamos, and everything on-site, or sell new or certified repaired parts. Scrapyards are used only by foreigners or people who need a bit of life experience to later find their way to a Bosch service. Because, as the name suggests, you will find scrap at a scrapyard.
Here in England, I have to mention Lucas, and everyone starts running away. Here, you can buy a syringe and start injecting Botox without any further qualifications. The same goes for hairdressers, nail studios, tattoo parlors, and painting and decorating.... and Bike-shops....
In Leicester, Halfords is not even able to use the USB service port on a Bosch mid-motor, but selling new bikes with such a motor is not a problem.
Ask any professional or even handyman which power tools are the best: blue Bosch comes out on top (green Bosch is for DIY/B&Q). Wherever there is an electric motor inside, Bosch has held a leading position for many, many years (I still have some Bosch power tools from the 1960s that work fine and without any problems).
Most Germans own a car and have experience with Bosch products, so it is not surprising that when spending money on an electric bike and Bosch is mentioned, the choice is clear. I wonder what would happen if Lucas (they still exist?) would sell/produce electric bikes...
As many of you know I live in the Alps and here 99% of bikes are mid motor, approx 85% of which are Bosch. The only wheel motor bikes you see are owned by tourists and they do not go in the mountains. The terrain is typically 10% average gradients for many kms with lots of steeper sections so puts a lot of strain on motors.
I have a couple of friends who have bike shops and sell many ebikes, one has a fleet of over 60 hire ebikes, neither has seen any motor failures on any Bosch powered bike. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it doesn't seen common to me.
You just have to look on here for many questions about wheel motors not engaging or stuttering or PAS problems to realise that wheel motors are also not 100% reliable.
@Heinzja, Lucas was taken over by American company TRW and subsequently by German ZF group.
I have a couple of friends who have bike shops and sell many ebikes, one has a fleet of over 60 hire ebikes, neither has seen any motor failures on any Bosch powered bike. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it doesn't seen common to me.
You just have to look on here for many questions about wheel motors not engaging or stuttering or PAS problems to realise that wheel motors are also not 100% reliable.
@Heinzja, Lucas was taken over by American company TRW and subsequently by German ZF group.
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As far as I know BB you are correct, RM frames are made in TW they certainly were when we were working with them. TW makes very high end both alloy and carbon frames.
The Birdy is an incredible little folding bike, and was R+Ms first offering. It’s huge in Japan and TW where bikes signed by both Riese and Muller are worth a small fortune. There’s a small industry built up around “pimping” Birdy bikes. Due to both front and rear suspension it feels almost the same as a full size bicycle and is so much better than a Brompton IMO. They changed to a monocoque design about 12 years ago which solved the frame issue. I believe it still holds the record for the fastest fold (although it takes a lot of practice!) They attempted a Birdy e bike about 10 years ago but dropped it.
We are considering selling the Birdy again.
All the best, David
You made exactly the point I would have made. Why are good e-bikes so expensive. I would have made exactly the comparison you did with IC motorcycles. They run reliably for tens of thousands of miles, When properly serviced, small Hondas will do a hundred thousand miles. I know a guy who has commuted on CG125s for decades and he has had two that went around the clock with only normal maintenance and they are inexpensive, and they were still fine. These motors are about ten times as complex as any ebike motor. Those little Honda Motors live happily at 5 000 revs to about 8000 revs and in top gear, in an hour the engine will do 360,000 revolutions.
I turned up at one of my MOTs a few years ago on a small Honda, near thirty years old, with a bag of tools bungeed to the luggage rack. This is a habit I built up fifty years ago when I rode about on old British Motorbikes made by BSA - you went anywhere further than the end of your street without tools at your peril in my experience. The old MOT man, nearing 70, said, 'What do you want them for man? It's a Honda.'
A bit too general!
Mid-drive motors have their negative points, but it is not as bad as you paint it, and they don't all look as daft as that Brose inside!
Take rare earth elements, for example, as used to make the magnets in the motors. Compare the amount in even a small hub motor to that in the tiny, higher speed motor in the mid-drive: 5, even 10 times as much. And look at the quantity in any direct drive motor. How much of that is recycled at end of life? About none?
That smaller motor means more gears and bearings, but the plastic and metal there is all recyclable and lower environmental impact than the magnets.
Drive train wear is higher, yes, but for an EAPC 250W motor, not absurdly so. A cassette every 5 or 6,000 miles and two or three chains with it has been my experience over nearly 21,000 miles.
Manufacturers are responding to the wear issue with new designs. Shimano Cues for example. I don't have any data yet, but the fundamentals of thicker roots to the cassette teeth and redesigned ramps to give the chain an easier time during gear changes lead them to claim 3 times the life expectancy. If that is true, then this problem is solved.
Hub motors have their own short life issues. When used in hilly terrain, or at higher power than the manufacturer intended by substituting a higher current controller, the battery is subjected to high current demand rather often, shortening its life.
Both motor configurations have their sensible use cases, and riders have their preferences.
The only point on which I wholeheartedly agree with you is the lack of easy access to the parts needed for service and maintenance.
Mid drive motors get a terrible press on here. I've got a Bafang BBS01 and it has been very good indeed. I know some of the early ones had water ingress problems, but I think that was sorted out long ago. In hilly terrain they are vastly superior since they are never required to labour at inefficient rotor speed.
Of course if people owned bad examples - they will hate them. You can make anything badly, but you can also make it well.
Just to put drivetrain costs in context:
My 11 speed setup uses a cassette that has rrp £70, but always available at £45, and by watching Ebay etc I pay £17 to £25.
11 speed chains, usually SRAM PC1110 or 1130, but whatever branded one is available at the time, never more than £12.99, and last year stocked up in a sale at £6.99. Should have bought more than 4!
So about £50 - £60 a year on drivetrain wear. No bike shop costs as I do all that myself.
My 11 speed setup uses a cassette that has rrp £70, but always available at £45, and by watching Ebay etc I pay £17 to £25.
11 speed chains, usually SRAM PC1110 or 1130, but whatever branded one is available at the time, never more than £12.99, and last year stocked up in a sale at £6.99. Should have bought more than 4!
So about £50 - £60 a year on drivetrain wear. No bike shop costs as I do all that myself.
Yep same here with my BBS01 bikes. Just accept these things wear out quicker on midrives than hub drives, it's obvious they will, dunno why people bang on about it all the time. As you say, easy job to get discounts and fitting them yourself is a doddle
I have a 10 mile uphill heavily laden ride this evening, from leaving a train at just after 10pm. Hoping my 9,600km cassette and 4,000km chain don't single point fail!
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