Charging electric cars

[Gubbins]

Nissan are suggesting using everyone's batteries to charge at off peak times at a discount and be available for the grid to draw back on at peak times.
No one is asking the obvious question.. what if I want to use my car during these peak times and the battery is not fully charged?

 

[tillson]

Nissan are suggesting using everyone's batteries to charge at off peak times at a discount and be available for the grid to draw back on at peak times.
No one is asking the obvious question.. what if I want to use my car during these peak times and the battery is not fully charged?

It’s all ok, no one knows what they are talking about.

I’m waiting for somebody to suggest fitting a dynamo, connected to the battery, onto one of the car’s wheels. There would be no need to charge it at all then.

 

[Ducknald Don]

Nissan are suggesting using everyone's batteries to charge at off peak times at a discount and be available for the grid to draw back on at peak times.
No one is asking the obvious question.. what if I want to use my car during these peak times and the battery is not fully charged?

Presumably you would know that and could turn it off, or there would be a setting that says don't let my capacity drop below 75%.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The electricity supply companies are looking at ways to smooth the demand. They are building massive batteries that can handle GWHs. It would make a lot of sense if everybody with an electric car plugged their battery into the network, then they wouldn't need to build their own very expensive batteries. I think it's a good idea. Not everybody uses their car every day.

 

[SHAN]

Positive approach up here.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/perth-kinross/588322/government-electric-vehicle-target-sparks-bertha-park-initative/

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/scotland-renewable-wind-energy-power-electricity-three-million-homes-118-per-cent-of-households-a7855846.html

 

[anotherkiwi]

The Tesla giga-battery installed in Australia is already a nice little earner for the company operating it. The whole car feeding back to the grid idea is only going to take off if the owner of the car sees as much financial advantage for himself as the electricity companies do IMHO.

 

[Gubbins]

The things that bother me as a potential buyer.. Some real world reports I have read on the Nissan Leaf (Chosen because its the only one most likely to be affordable by me) suggest it doesnt go anywhere near as far as we are told it should and even its own computer projected range falls short of its own estimations which in one report was less than 85 miles when it should be 120. This range exaggeration is nothing new but to have to make an unplanned journey that is anywhere near this not so high maximimum range and then finding the battery to be not fully charged would be a worry as would having to add this idea to a journey plan.
Imagine in our ebike world .. a freind rings and suggests an evening ride out, but you then find that your battery has discharge by 20% to feed back into the grid! Also in our ebike world.. However big the battery we get its never enough as our expectations grow with any increase in capacity.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/nissan-leaf-owning-mp-tells-14219479

 

[anotherkiwi]

http://www.alphr.com/cars/1001808/nissan-leaf-vs-renault-zoe-which-electric-vehicle-is-best

The new long range version of the Zoe is good for 185 miles

 

[flecc]

Some real world reports I have read on the Nissan Leaf (Chosen because its the only one most likely to be affordable by me) suggest it doesnt go anywhere near as far as we are told it should and even its own computer projected range falls short of its own estimations which in one report was less than 85 miles when it should be 120.

That's completely out of date now with the Leaf 2 new model about to start deliveries. The old 24 and recent 30 kWh batteries are out, the new one being 40kWh. Ranges actual and possible are now:

Theoretical in ideal circumstances with great care = 235 miles

Realistic in Summer = 180 miles

Realistic in Winter = 120 miles

The winter drop is stated to be almost entirely due to the loss of battery efficiency in the cold. The car's heat pump for warmth doesn't use much power.

On affordability the Leaf isn't top now, the large battery models with sufficient spec. from £24,000 up including batteries.

Renault's Zoe is also available with a 41 kWh battery and similar ranges, priced at just over £23,000 with similar spec., including the battery. However, as an established model the Zoe is available with big discounts. Yesterday I got these offers on the Zoe i-Dynamique Nav mid range model from nearby Renault dealers through CarWow:

2 miles away = £18,365

5 miles away = £17,629

9 miles away = £19313

12 miles away = £17,749

The non i models are also available much cheaper (about £5000 less) but battery rented on monthly payments. All quoted prices are after deducting the government grant.

P.S. The information on the Leaf in AnotherKiwi's link is out of date, the old 30kWh model.
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[Deleted member 4366]

You need around 20kw to 30kw to keep a car at 70 mph on the motorway, depending on conditions. Let's say 25kw. A 40kwh battery will last for 1.6 hours or 112 miles. In practice, you can't cruise at 70 mph everywhere. You need acceleration and deceleration, so your consumption is likely to be higher.

Pure electric cars are not really ready to replace all the journeys that an IC car does, but would probably be better for 95% of all journeys. That's a shame.

The BMW gets round the range problem with its 600cc range extender motor.

 

[flecc]

You need around 20kw to 30kw to keep a car at 70 mph on the motorway, depending on conditions. Let's say 25kw. A 40kwh battery will last for 1.6 hours or 112 miles. In practice, you can't cruise at 70 mph everywhere. You need acceleration and deceleration, so your consumption is likely to be higher.
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In practice most owners do better than that though, driving more carefully or using one of the Eco modes easily gets over the figures I quoted. Here's a comment from one Zoe 40kWh model owner who doesn't try to drive with economy in mind:

Youll never get less than 3mpkwh, put it that way. I drive fast, I don't give a monkeys about range or battery life, I just get in and drive. I'd expect no less than 120miles in the ZE40 based on my driving

His Renault model is Q one (for quickest charges on long journeys), the R one that most buy does a bit better on range.

The new Leaf has switchable one pedal driving option, called e-pedal. Lifting off progressively increases energy recovery and more fully lifted off adds braking and brake lights as well. It makes it easy to maximise energy recovery without it being too disruptive to driving style once used to it.
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[Gubbins]

In practice most owners do better than that though, driving more carefully or using one of the Eco modes easily gets over the figures I quoted. Here's a comment from one Zoe 40kWh model owner who doesn't try to drive with economy in mind:

Youll never get less than 3mpkwh, put it that way. I drive fast, I don't give a monkeys about range or battery life, I just get in and drive. I'd expect no less than 120miles in the ZE40 based on my driving

His Renault model is Q one (for quickest charges on long journeys), the R one that most buy does a bit better on range.

The new Leaf has switchable one pedal driving option, called e-pedal. Lifting off progressively increases energy recovery and more fully lifted off adds braking and brake lights as well. It makes it easy to maximise energy recovery without it being too disruptive to driving style once used to it.
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Just a thought flecc .. would you buy one? Not necessarily a Renault or Nissan, but an e-car? It's something I occasiinally think about but last time I looked at second hand values the depreciation looked horrendous.

 

[flecc]

Just a thought flecc .. would you buy one? Not necessarily a Renault or Nissan, but an e-car? It's something I occasiinally think about but last time I looked at second hand values the depreciation looked horrendous.

Yes, and I've been following e-car development closely for ten years now.

I've been wanting to buy for two years since March 2016. At my age I don't care about depreciation, I'll let the beneficiaries from my will mope over that!

But there's a problem. Basically I can't plug in at home and my garage is remote from it with no power. I can get power to the garage but due to legalities and distance it will cost a total of around £6000 now, too much on top of the car cost. So two years ago I had to give up on the idea.

Now though I've hit on another way to get power, taking it from a closer management company supply through a meter. That's under investigation for approval at the moment, hence my renewed interest. If I can get the power I'm definitely buying a new e-car. Three under consideration:

New Nissan Leaf 2 Acenta, nearly at release point. Very good with many improvements on previous model but a squeeze into my garage. They are larger than they look.

Renault Zoe i-Dynamique Nav. A bit less performance and refinement than the Leaf and sometimes eccentric French software. Well established proven design though and much cheaper than the Leaf.

VW e-Up. It's small city size suits me well and it's the most refined of the three and with genuinely very good build quality and well thought out design. It's also a good performer. Two problems though. One is the small battery, 18.7 kWh only, giving a real world range of 70 miles summer amd as low as 50 miles winter. That's actually enough for nearly all my driving, but it's irritating that it could be much more.

VW have a double capacity battery that fits, it's already in the e- Golf, but with typical Germanic arrogance they effectively say that with the e-car market so small, they can't be bothered to update the e-Up.

The second problem is that at circa £21,000 after the government grant, it's very expensive for such a small car with a very small battery.
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[Gubbins]

My current car is only one year old so it will be a while before I am ready to take the plunge which gives the manufacturers time to refine things a bit more, plus I rcently discovered that something, possibly Brexit, has impacted on the second hand values of German cars..

 

[anotherkiwi]

If I win the Euromillion I will probably go straight out and buy a BMW i3 with range extender. If I hadn't been such an idiot in my finances I would probably already have a Twizy with a hot rodded battery pack.

 

[flecc]

My current car is only one year old so it will be a while before I am ready to take the plunge which gives the manufacturers time to refine things a bit more, plus I rcently discovered that something, possibly Brexit, has impacted on the second hand values of German cars..

I don't think there'll be any big leaps in design, it's likely to be in refinements like those on the latest Leaf.

Where a big improvement is necessary is in the charging infrastructure which at present is not only totally inadequate but also unreliable. Many points are run by startups who are clueless on how to keep them running or even how to solve problems.
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[flecc]

If I win the Euromillion I will probably go straight out and buy a BMW i3 with range extender.

Having gone into this very deeply for a while, I don't like that range extender BMW, it seems like an ill thought out after thought.

The fuel tank is tiny, adding very little to the range and the 600cc engine can overheat in its enclosure with use of the whole fuel capacity on hot days. When it does that the power level is cut automatically to a lower level and low performance, showing BMW were well aware of the defect in it's design.
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[Gubbins]

If I win the Euromillion I will probably go straight out and buy a BMW i3 with range extender. If I hadn't been such an idiot in my finances I would probably already have a Twizy with a hot rodded battery pack.

If I had never learned to drive I wouldn't need euromillions....

 

[flecc]

If I had never learned to drive I wouldn't need euromillions....

You're not kidding, what I've spent on cars and driving in my lifetime might have lifted a small third world country out of poverty.
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[anotherkiwi]

OK damn the expense, an i8 then...