Changes to selling e-bikes, conversion kits and batteries on eBay.co.uk - No more private (personal) sales.

[Peter.Bridge]

I remember here

Fires in e-bikes and e-scooters – 2022 and 2023

www.gov.uk

 

[Woosh]

Interesting (and to be expected), can you recall where you saw them?

I think it was on YT Sam Evans the electric Viking. Apparently, e-bike fires injure 10x more than EVs fires. I can believe it. You wouldn't park your EV in the hallway would you?

 

[Az.]

I remember here

Fires in e-bikes and e-scooters – 2022 and 2023

www.gov.uk

"121 fires that occurred between January 2017 and December 2021, involving an e-bike or e-scooter. The majority (119) were from the London Fire Brigade "

"93 fires occurring in 2022 involving an e-bike or e-scooter. The majority of these (87) were reported by LFB "

This data can't be very accurate.

Edit: No, it is not :
"not all FRSs notify OPSS of fires involving consumer products. This means that the volumes cannot be used to estimate incidents at a national level nor be used to compare FRSs. OPSS is working with FRSs to improve their notification of incidents. "

 

[saneagle]

Apparently, e-bike fires injure 10x more than EVs fires. I can believe it.

You believe that? I don't. It seems completely implausible to me. I can see 10 times as many ebikes and scooters catching fire, but the chance of someone getting injured would be a lot lower than if a car caught fire unless injuries include burnt fingers when somebody tried to move the bike/scooter/battery while it was burning, or the smoke made someone cough.

 

[Az.]

but the chance of someone getting injured would be a lot lower

Not if they charge battery under the bed or under stairs at night.

 

[saneagle]

Not if they charge battery under the bed or under stairs at night.

Is that what you do then?

 

[Az.]

Is that what you do then?

Absolutely not, but imagine a delivery rider renting a room with other six or ten like him in one flat. When and where they could charge batteries?

 

[guerney]

Not if they charge battery under the bed

#electricblanketalternative
#costoflivingcrisis

 

[guerney]

Do doors of electric cars open automatically when their batteries are on fire, or do you have to wait for them to melt?

 

[Woosh]

You believe that? I don't. It seems completely implausible to me. I can see 10 times as many ebikes and scooters catching fire, but the chance of someone getting injured would be a lot lower than if a car caught fire unless injuries include burnt fingers when somebody tried to move the bike/scooter/battery while it was burning, or the smoke made someone cough.

the number of people injured by batteries fires:

According to London Fire Brigade, fires caused by e-bikes became the capital’s fastest-growing fire trend in 2023. By the end of August last year, crews had fought 104 e-bike fires along with 19 e-scooter blazes. Three people lost their lives in fires believed to have been caused by a failure of an e-bike lithium-ion battery, while 51 people were injured.

51 injuries, 3 deaths out 104 battery fires last year in London. The chance of being hurt is very high when people bring their bikes indoors.

 

[AntonyC]

the chance of someone getting injured would be a lot lower than if a car caught fire unless injuries include burnt fingers when somebody tried to move the bike/scooter/battery while it was burning, or the smoke made someone cough.

The fumes are toxic and sometimes followed by an explosive vapour cloud.
You must have seen video of people peering at a battery before being engulfed in flame: in simple terms TR is exponential so there can be a long delay from it starting, then it can go from fizz to bang very quickly. The case needs to be waterproof, done clumsily this makes the battery explode, done well it projects heat or flame in a long plume.

All this takes off somewhere between 60 and 100 degress C, so the bit I find implausible is the branded retail industry's stance that their products aren't ever the ones catching fire. Uninformed consumer misuse ought to see to a few cases I'd have thought.

 

[Woosh]

All this takes off somewhere between 60 and 100 degress C, so the bit I find implausible is the branded retail industry's stance that their products aren't ever the ones catching fire. Uninformed consumer misuse ought to see to a few cases I'd have thought.

there were very few e-bike fire incidents before the e-scooters arrived.
It could well be that very few retailers realise the risks posed by e-scooters. Unlike e-bikes, e-scooters motors don't have gearboxes so they run at easily double the current and power of bikes even at slower speed. 500W/1000W are very common. Plus, their batteries are not waterproofed and cased like e-bikes.

 

[Ghost1951]

Most of the problem of e-bike fires is about the battery being abused.

The abuse is often about batteries being overheated either by massive currents being drawn by over powered controllers (cobbled together illegally high power bikes) or by over charging through using a charger which supplies too much current, or through use of a higher voltage charger.

As is well known to all here - overheating the battery will result in a very bad day for all concerned.

The reason that top brands are not going up in flames is that the people who buy them use the proper charger and the controller treats the battery gently by not drawing down currents that are much too high. The other end of the market lends itself to idiots doing stupid things, but they also do stupid things with butane lighters and anything else the get their hands on - such as knives. Ebay still sell butane lighters - though not the ones for cigarettes... Cigar lighters are OK though. The specific intent of these items is to set things alight.

Butane Lighters for sale | eBay

Find great deals on eBay for Butane Lighters. Shop with confidence.

www.ebay.co.uk

A few batteries may develop short circuits over time with metal dendrites puncturing the separator and creating a short circuit inside a cell which might then go into thermal runaway. The resulting smallish fire would overheat other cells and set them off as well. This might effect very cheap cells more than premium ones, but any cell could do this I would think.

The problem with ebike fires is 99% a people problem. Stupid careless people do stupid careless things. Banning stuff is not the solution.

I'm going to bet that in future we will be riding on ebikes powered by Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. Bigger and heavier for the same output, but they don't go on fire and if you don't over charge them they last about five times as long as the lithium / manganese / cobalt technology we now use. More and more EV cars now have that technology.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Do doors of electric cars open automatically when their batteries are on fire, or do you have to wait for them to melt?

You wouldn't believe what is happening in China, I've watched a few videos about horrific deaths where a simple collision resulted in the EV battery pack being compromised and the people inside incinerated basically. The Chinese brand EV's not only ignited quickly but most or all of the safety features didn't operate. China has very poor safety standards internally though with very little consumer protection. The Chinese government hides data about failing buildings, EVs, trains etc. I've dealt with importing Chinese goods and certification for a large company. Once they know you won't accept any goods that aren't properly made or certified they will provide the right product but in China itself its a race to the bottom. I think China has lowered the weight restriction for ebikes to 20kg and this has prevented many of the cheap lead acid based ebikes being sold now which were much safer. In Hong Kong electric bicycles are completely illegal anyway, as soon as a motor is part of the product its a motorcycle. China seems to love prosecuting its own people and giving out large fines so rules keep changing it seems.

 

[Az.]

What is missing in statistics is how many fires were caused by illegal e-bikes.

 

[saneagle]

the number of people injured by batteries fires:

51 injuries, 3 deaths out 104 battery fires last year in London. The chance of being hurt is very high when people bring their bikes indoors.

That's lithium battery fires, not ebike fires. It includes, vaccum cleaners, iphones, lawnmowers, RC aeroplanes, drones, Amazon battery welders, cars, vans, buses, camping lights, airbed pumps, penis vacuum pumps (I don't have one, honest!), life-like dolls, and everything else. How many of them were injured by their life doll after they turned up the excitement knob or set the charger to fast charge too often?

Only Yours | Official Retailer of Luxury Sex Dolls & Sex Toys

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www.onlyyoursdolls.co.uk

 

[Woosh]

That's lithium battery fires, not ebike fires.

No, the figures relate to e-bikes and e-scooters fires.

 

[AntonyC]

Most of the problem of e-bike fires is about the battery being abused.

The abuse is often about batteries being overheated either by massive currents being drawn by over powered controllers (cobbled together illegally high power bikes) or by over charging through using a charger which supplies too much current, or through use of a higher voltage charger.

As is well known to all here - overheating the battery will result in a very bad day for all concerned.

The reason that top brands are not going up in flames is that the people who buy them use the proper charger and the controller treats the battery gently by not drawing down currents that are much too high. The other end of the market lends itself to idiots doing stupid things, but they also do stupid things with butane lighters and anything else the get their hands on - such as knives. Ebay still sell butane lighters - though not the ones for cigarettes... Cigar lighters are OK though. The specific intent of these items is to set things alight.

Butane Lighters for sale | eBay

Find great deals on eBay for Butane Lighters. Shop with confidence.

www.ebay.co.uk

A few batteries may develop short circuits over time with metal dendrites puncturing the separator and creating a short circuit inside a cell which might then go into thermal runaway. The resulting smallish fire would overheat other cells and set them off as well. This might effect very cheap cells more than premium ones, but any cell could do this I would think.

The problem with ebike fires is 99% a people problem. Stupid careless people do stupid careless things. Banning stuff is not the solution.

I'm going to bet that in future we will be riding on ebikes powered by Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. Bigger and heavier for the same output, but they don't go on fire and if you don't over charge them they last about five times as long as the lithium / manganese / cobalt technology we now use. More and more EV cars now have that technology.

In my own tribute to Flecc's "EAPCs/Pedelecs vs the rest" crusade (to get that distinction widely used and into the media), I want to propose that we call rubbish batteries Cell-packs. Any safe BMS protects against over-voltage, over-current in and out and over-temperature, plus other functions that can indirectly add to safety but are mainly about protecting the cells. When these limits are breached it cuts off.

So over-charging can only happen to an Under-Protected Cell-Pack, one with a BMS that's missing core safety functions or with no BMS at all. It's like having a leaky case; the cells need basic electrical and physical protection.

The distinction is vital to recognising that over-charging isn't a consumer misuse issue, it's a cost-cutting issue, whether responsibility lies with the buyer of a shrink-wrapped lump or with the supplier of a branded battery who tries to pass off a proprietary socket as adequate compensation for a cheap sub-standard BMS. There's no harm in having additional layers of protection: a matched charger and/or a timer, but only the BMS is an integral part of the battery.

Careless people aren't necessarily stupid either, they're just ignorant until 1) they've been warned what not to do and 2) they've been warned about the consequences, which the trade is naturally reluctant to do. Even then we all get an off day. Compare with petrol or domestic mains. Consumer misuse and reasonable consumer abuse - curiosity / kids / mild tampering - shouldn't be costing lives to this extent.

 

[portals]

51 injuries, 3 deaths out 104 battery fires last year in London. The chance of being hurt is very high when people bring their bikes indoors.

The chance of being hurt is very high when people bring their bikes indoors.

That doesn't make sense to me 'very high' is meaningless, surely smoking or cooking when tired or drunk has been responsible for hurting way more people comparatively than your ebike catch fire?

 

[Woosh]

The distinction is vital to recognising that over-charging isn't a consumer misuse issue, it's a cost-cutting issue, whether responsibility lies with the buyer of a shrink-wrapped lump or with the supplier of a branded battery who tries to pass off a proprietary socket as adequate compensation for a cheap sub-standard BMS. There's no harm in having additional layers of protection: a matched charger and/or a timer, but only the BMS is an integral part of the battery.

I am not sure that the BMS is at fault in those situations. It could well be that one of the cells has gone bad, causing the charging process to continue until the bad cell starts to burn.

IMHO, that situation arises because the internet promotes ridiculous price comparison. Before the age of internet price comparison, people used to call up potential suppliers and have a little chat before buying. Now they buy first and rely on amazon and ebay refund policy to sort out problems later.
Those who need to sell on pennies differences will continue same price comparison with their own suppliers and eventually, fake and reject cells got unwittingly into people's batteries.
My advice is call and talk to your suppliers before you buy.